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| Wolfgang |
 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: So what do you think of the GSL? |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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MY FIRST IMPRESSIONS:
It seems that the GSL does pretty much what was advertised. There's no definition for "product lines", and it is subject to revision at will by Wizards.
Not surprisingly, there's no ability to publish 4E content on a web site other than the DDI. Though they promise a fan site policy will be provided soon.
And there's no SRD material to reprint at will, really. Absolutely everything published under this license will require a lookup in the PHB, MM, DMG, or other SRD sources.
It's also no longer possible to use material from other companies in an open source style, to improve GSL products across the board.
I dunno, I was hoping for something with a little more value to a Third Party Publisher. This doesn't help KQ a bit.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Nyarlathotep |
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
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I've only perused the license to see what it has to say before making a final 4E decision and it's pretty disapointing to me. While I'm not as concerned about sourcebook creation by 3PP it sure seems to neuter adventure publishing, something that WotC (in my mind) has been particularly bad at.
I suppose a publisher could just advance/demote monsters to be able to print a statblock but from the looks of things, you couldn't print a monsters specific abilities within that statblock. So now you're stuck referencing at least two books (the MM and the adventure). The perceived upside would be that this will lead to a whole slew of newly created monsters to solve this problem.
The termination clause seems particularly draconian as well.
Edit: Overall it looks more and more like I'll be going the Pathfinder RPG for my gaming groups. |
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| Phil Larwood |
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 48
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It seems that WotC is deciding KQ's and the Open Game Design's fate in one fell swoop.
So what are you going to do Wolfgang? |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Contributor
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 586
Location: Bensalem, PA
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I'm not a lawyer, but I gave the license a read last night anyway. I think it's a kick in the teeth to third party publishers, given some of the clauses.
For example, as best as I can tell from what I read: If I publish a druid class on October 1st and WotC releases an official druid next spring, my book with the druid is no retroactively in violation of the GSL. I would need to stop publishing my book and destroy all my copies.
I hope I'm wrong, because that seems particularly harsh.
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John Ling
Freelance Writer
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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| Phil Larwood wrote: |
It seems that WotC is deciding KQ's and the Open Game Design's fate in one fell swoop.
So what are you going to do Wolfgang? |
Talk to some lawyers. Really, I don't have a lot of choice; the GSL is so toxic-looking that I want to be very, very careful around it.
I will continue to publish both KQ and patron adventures. Wrath of the River King is in the most danger, since I planned on using the GSL to publish it.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| chefseehund |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 24
Location: Germany
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| Phil Larwood wrote: |
It seems that WotC is deciding KQ's and the Open Game Design's fate in one fell swoop.
So what are you going to do Wolfgang? |
Talk to some lawyers. Really, I don't have a lot of choice; the GSL is so toxic-looking that I want to be very, very careful around it.
I will continue to publish both KQ and patron adventures. Wrath of the River King is in the most danger, since I planned on using the GSL to publish it. |
...just to get this right: Only 4E-stuff is affected, right? Is the OGL still legally in effect, and can everybody continue to publish under it? As far as I understood the whole thing, the GSL does not change anything that has to do with the OGL, right?
I am asking because in that case, Wolfgang (and all the other 3rd party publishers out there) could ALL opt to stay away from 4E.
In that case I am tempted to predict that 4E won't be as successful as 3e was, because the gaming world (i.e. customer base) would fracture into a 4E group that is served by WotC and a probably very small number of OGL-publishers that chose to do only 4e-stuff, and a LOT of companies that do d20-stuff, which is widely available and more or less compatible with each other. Since there are a lot of high-quality companies out there (which was way different in the early d20-times, afair), Wizards might face a very stiff competition for customers.
Can they revoke the OGL, btw? |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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The OGL cannot be revoked.
However, any publisher who accepts the GSL terms limits their own ability to use the OGL (there's no ability to release in both formats, and GSL products cannot be released as OGL, ever).
Some publishers will certainly use the GSL, but it's not going to be a wide range of freewheeling support like the OGL, just because it's not allowed. No new rules sets, limitations on splatbook support, etc.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 586
Location: Bensalem, PA
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The OGL cannot be revoked. Anybody can continue to use it, as long as they use just it.
One of the clauses of the GSL involves conversion of product lines. Basically, once you create one product of an existing product line using the GSL, you can no longer produce that product line in 3.5. In addition, you have to immediately stop selling any PDF versions of things in that product line. You must stop printing any print copy, but can continue to see them until your stock runs out.
The kicker is that another term of the license grants WotC the ability to determine what a "product line" really is, in regards to your company. They could, for example, declare that all of Open Design is one product line, and leave KQ alone. Or... they could decide that KQ is really part of the same product line, and basically force the issue. And they get to do this with every single company.
standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.[/i]
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John Ling
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| chefseehund |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 05 May 2008
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Location: Germany
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Thanks both, that answers my questions and neatly sums up what I read since yesterday.
Wolfgang, how about changing Wrath into a 3E project? ...or was it's "4E-ishness" the major point of the project? Since the plot is rules-independant, writing it as a 3E product shouldn't be a problem, I guess. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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Wrath was offered, from the very beginning, as a 4E project, and will continue in that vein. Many of its patrons are interested in it only because it is a 4E adventure.
So, Wrath will not become a 3E project; the patrons would (rightly) be furious. It will either be cancelled or continue as a 4E project, pending the outcome of some lawyerly discussions I'm having right now.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| chefseehund |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 05 May 2008
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| OK, that answers my question. Mind you, I did not want to propose changing it from 4E to 3E, I was just curious if this would be a workable solution. |
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| Sigfried |
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 94
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I don't like the GLS and I like the SRD a whole lot less.
For my own project "Netbook of Feats" I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I really want to follow the rules, I really want to make a 4E version, and I really don't want to stop making the 3.5 version available from my site.
I'll either have to abandon one of the other version or I have to simply try to fly under the radar and hope that WOTC doesn't much care what I do. Either way I'm not too happy about it.
If I were in the adventure or supliment making buisness and I hadn't been making a lot of 3.5 material I think the license wouldn't be too much of an issue. All you have to do is not use any of the SRD rules material and you don't have to sweat much. Just make up your own monsters, treasure, give them names that are somewhat uniqe and you are good to go.
So if you want to make a duid... call them a "Nature Shifter" or a "Ceaderwoods Druid" or what have you and the risk of WOTC calling you on a redefine of items added to the SRD isn't such a problem unless they are going out of thier way to come after you which seems far fetched to me unless you are goading them somehow.
I think without section 6.1 a lot of this would be a lot less a problem. It would still be a disapointment to have the actual rules closed off via the now worthless SRD, but at least you could go ahead and work within the guidelines to make new material. But 6.1 puts anyone who made 3.5 material in a nasty bind and I don't really see WOTC as getting much from it.
They are forcing people to decide 3.5 or 4.0? The bird in the hand or the bird in the bush? If they didn't force the issue they could just let 4.0 become defacto standard and watch 3.5 drift into the land of the niche hobbiest. But the fact they didn't seems to me to signle they are worried they need more leverage against the OGL legacy, and that's almost a signal to 3.5 invested publishers to stick to their guns and just do 4E under a different branding entirely to be on the safe side.
I'm considering calling the 4E Netbook of Feats something differnet and going through the motions of handing off the 3E version to some other individual to be the "publisher" but really thats just dancing around the bush and I know it, and if WOTC cared they woudl know it too.
I think a lot of this will just force the fan community to turn from up front OGL back into bootleg unoficial do whatever we want. The SRD more or less kills the need for bootleg PDFs and the like, but now its just back to piracy for those uninclined to buy thier gaming products.
If WOTC had thier D&D insider tools and rules up and running, that might be a somewhat differnt story as they could claim there is little need for thrid party databases or the like. But they don't so its more a matter of them squating on people fully enjoying the game. |
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| phloog |
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 4
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Well, consider me a long-term customer for anything you do in 3.5 or True 20 format, and I have no interest at all in 4e. I'm fine with anyone who likes 4e, but I don't like the rules I've read/played to-date, and they've made it so that no 3rd party can create decent adventures easily.
Call me a grognard if you will, but this is less about me loving the old as it is me disliking so much of the new - including this rather hostile license. |
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| EL |
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 53
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Just go 3E or Pathfinder and worry not what the GSL says.
(funny but all of a sudden this reminds me of the Civil War storyline Marvel just ran)
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3E+PF=KQ subscription IMHO |
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| RedDragon |
| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 16
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| You know I don't mind 4E as a game but WOTC draconic new policy towards 3rd party publishers is really a turn off. I liked the the OGL allowed for third parties to produce their own takes on D&D. WOTC still made money and everyone seemed happy. |
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