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| Do You Prefer Exclusive/Limited Editions? |
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| I prefer the next Open Design project as a... |
| ... very limited edition that is exclusive to patrons only. |
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9% |
[ 7 ] |
| ... private edition that later patrons can still pick up at any time. |
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67% |
[ 49 ] |
| ... public edition that patrons gets some extra part, chapter, or exclusive content for. |
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10% |
[ 8 ] |
| ... public edition that is largely identical to the patron version. Maybe title page/note distinguishes them. |
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12% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 73 |
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| Author |
Message
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| bamclean |
 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
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| I think it would be beneficial if an occasional rare project were to be made available to the general public. It would allow the "outsiders" to see the fruits of our labor and encourage more people to become patrons. Think of it as an advertisement for the Open Design Project; a teaser to all the cool stuff that is being created on normal basis around here. Contributing patrons, of course, should still receive some special edition of the said project (i.e. extra maps, alternate endings, bonus encounters, etc.). |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2032
Location: upstate NY
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As I said in the Steam & Brass thread-- stories have their strength, their power, when they're shared. The real value of the Open Design project is, in my opinion, the experience of the development process; the adventure generated at the end of that process is a very fortunate (and intentional) byproduct.
Certainly, if one prefers to keep a certain level of collectible value to the end product, then I could see a stripped down version made available to those who are just looking for the story. This version would probably lack the art and design notes of the initial project.
So far, though, I haven't had a problem with the policy of permitting patrons to purchase nominated projects or the most previous project when they join a current project. A super-secret-squirrel nature is fun, sure, but that shouldn't keep the stories from the gamers.
Do these pieces stand alone? Sure. But they all contribute to the world of Zobeck, and frankly, being able to access the stories of that shared world is important to its growth.
The whole idea at the beginning of this crazy trip was that this model allowed for a design that wasn't hindered by mainstream constraints. That it catered to the people who signed on for the project when it hit greenlight status and whatever their niche tastes might be.
Ask yourself, what do you gain by keeping others who share your tastes from the material? Would you keep them from the gaming table? Say "no no, we're full up here" even though there's plenty of room?
Generosity only allows the model to grow-- encouraging guest authors to pursue projects that they cannot otherwise support. Consider the "Angels of our Better Nature" proposal. If Wolfgang were to pick up a different project (and may I humbly throw "The Flying Fortress" back out into the mix for consideration.), this project could still possibly proceed if a guest author, such as Sean K. Reynolds were engaged. (who apparently had a similar idea kicking around in his brainspace. How would we have that kind of option if we didn't grow the community? We grow the community by showing what we've generated and sharing it-- and we lose nothing because the real value, the real treasure of this project is the time spent in the benevolent-dictatorship-collaborative-discussion-creation-storm that is each project. You can't trade that, you can't give it, you can't sell it. It is what you put into it.
-Ben.
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progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1625
Location: Your TARDIS
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Let me quash this notion (again). The terms of past patronage projects are not up for discussion; they've been set and will continue as originally outlined.
I have no interest in changing project terms retroactively, and I find it insulting when others suggest that I might. Particularly others who have been a thorn in my side on this issue every time it comes up.
I have no interest in working for patrons who value exclusivity over all other considerations. Another implication of the patronage model is that I need not take everyone's money; I can choose my customers.
We're talking about the terms for future projects: closed limited editions, subscription/membership editions, or open editions are the main contenders. Let's not drag past projects into this. There's a whole separate thread on that topic that I'm studiously avoiding. |
Just for absolute clarity on my previous post..
What Wolfgang is saying about the decision being in terms of future Projects and not past Projects.. is in alignment with what I intended to say.
I know I was short on time when I posted, and I might not have been precise in my language. But as I said in the first sentence, I have no interest in having Wolfgang make a retroactive change of policy.
I voted #2, for all future Projects going forward.
| Troy wrote: |
| But the idea of allowing access to exclusive material in any form by simply joining the club at a later date is not maintaining exclusivity or establishing rarity as most people define it. Even at a heightened price any later payment that allows access to past content is simply creating a club membership, or subscription fee. |
I'd like to respond to this, but only in the context of Projects going forward from this date, and not past Projects.
Troy, what you've written is not an entirely inaccurate summation of what Vote #2 constitutes. But you have not sold the idea that this is necessarily a bad thing.
More to the point, you haven't made the case that the circumstances surrounding Steam & Brass is actually something I would ever want to see happen again, even if I were in your position. Even if it was me who had the power. I quite literally pose that the very nature of Open Design's Patronage System be altered to prevent another Steam & Brass.
Like many others have already said, I admire your courage and conviction. I take exception that you feel that you have been "blasted" in the Steam & Brass thread. From my perspective, even those who have disagreed with you have thanked you for your participation in the discussion, and honored your right to disagree. Sure, they're trying to persuade you to change your mind, or challenge the way that you think- but no one is lambasting you. To then claim you have been "blasted" does not honor the respect that they are showing you.
I'll chalk that up not enjoying confrontation. I certainly don't begrudge you feeling a little uncomfortable. I'm sure I would feel the same in your position. Please understand that I am respecting you when I say that I admire your courage. I give any number of compliments lightly, but courage is not one of them.
I am going to make a final comment on Steam & Brass in the appropriate thread. |
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| kenmarable |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 5
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| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
| If Wolfgang decides that the future is to allow open sales of (edit: future) projects to happen then that is his decision. But I can't really call it a Patronage model at that point. All it will be at that point is a marketing department with employees that pay for the privilege of being part of his marketing department. The reward for their efforts is a collectors edition of the adventure. At that point I would personally no longer be a patron. There would be no need. I could get the sourcebook on the store shelves and ask a "patron" to xerox any content I don't have. Or simply pay a subscription/membership fee if I have the money. |
I have an entirely different notion of patronage. The exclusivity is largely separate. Marketing is entirely different and just a role a few patrons have gladly picked up.
Being a patron is about seeing the design process in action on a near daily basis, and influencing that design process at every stage. So even if every patron project hits the store shelves as is, there would still be interest in patronage, and I include myself among those who would be still interested.
I think making the projects exclusive to all current patrons would be ideal, not so much in how patronage is defined, but from a purely business standpoint. There's enough exclusivity that being see it as a bonus on top of the patronage influence, but it is open enough to be used to draw in future patrons.
However, whatever the result winds up being, I enjoy being a patron for the reasons I mentioned before - to see the design process at work with someone who has extensive industry experience and to influence that design process. That alone makes patronage worth it.
Edit: Just read some of your posts over in the Steam & Brass thread and I should clarify that the above is my personal view of patronage. I can now better understand yours, but it is a very different view than mine. Hopefully I was clear about that already, but just in case I wanted to make it clear. I was mainly taken back by your comment that without exclusivity, patrons are just a marketing team. I certainly disagree with that. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2032
Location: upstate NY
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Troy,
I hope you don't consider my replies being "blasted." I tried to be considerate and polite. If I've offended, please let me know.
-Ben.
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progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| richgreen01 |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 784
Location: London, UK
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I voted #2.
Cheers
Richard |
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| jmepatterson |
| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 8
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
I have no interest in changing project terms retroactively, and I find it insulting when others suggest that I might. Particularly others who have been a thorn in my side on this issue every time it comes up.
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Hey, I haven't said anything of the sort ...for a change  |
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| grodog |
| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 26 Mar 2008
Posts: 23
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Some rambly thoughts here, Wolfgang:
I think patron exclusivity has a certain appeal to the collectors in the hobby, but if you want to expand your audience closer toward its maximum potential, I think you'll need to push beyond that structure to a more-open and -inclusive model. If a D&D 5th edition player discovers Wolfgang Baur and OD in 2016 and goes gaga, it would be very nice for you to be able to sell him older projects beyond the current one and the previous one or two.
Via the projects I sponsored, I found the earlier materials sufficiently interesting enough to go back and buy them. I'm sure other non-sponsors would do the same with new more-open projects that will be old in the future, if they had the opportunity to do so. I wasn't able to buy as far back as Steam & Brass, but that didn't bother me since I'm not a huge steampunk genre fan---had that been a Greyhawk-related project, however, I would have been much more bummed about it's closed nature.
I don't really see a downside to making the content available to everyone. You could still provide services to the patrons that are not available to post-project sponsors, to help protect the value of patronage: providing all of the drafts, downloads, and blog content for the project (perhaps as a CD and/or just a .zip archive); providing access to premium content not in the public version (that's a bummer though, because it really is the content that everyone wants, in the end, whether current or older); providing cheaper prices on the finished product (I think you're doing this already, right?); providing a general discount on any OD/KQ product; etc.
On some level, though, patrons will be a self-selecting minority anyway: these are the folks who are most-interested in a particular project/topic, and they'll jump in and support it in order to be involved in the design-exchange process. That level of access is already exclusive, in the sense that you can't wield any influence after the fact when the project is completed and done.
So far the poll indicates lots of support for open access to future OD projects. Do you have a good cross-section of replies, across all levels of patronage, across all projects to date? I ask because until Steam & Brass or Castle Shadowcrag hits eBay, I don't think you're really going to have a good sense of how much concern there is (or isn't) over this from the collector/senior patron community POV (and I do know that I'm conflating those two groups a bit more than they probably deserve, but to me that's how I see the exclusivity play out).
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I hope you'll return to the Plane of Shadow or Faery ideas at some point, and will check back in to monitor those!
_________________
grodog
----
Allan Grohe
grodog@gmail.com
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html for my Greyhawk site |
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| Armoury99 |
| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Reality (outskirts)
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Some very eloquent comments there by Grodog!
Just to add my voice to the many comments so far...
Speaking personally, exclusivity isn't any kind of draw for me at all. I join a project because I like the subject matter, not because nobody but me will ever see it. The patronage process itself has plenty of "exclusive" content (design essays, collaborative brainstorming, the opportunity to contribute, access to the Wolfgang's wit and wisdom, etc), and if we as a group have produced something, I'm happy to share that with the world - in fact, I actively want to!
Giving latecomers the opportunity to buy a OD product "after the fact" also sounds like sound business sense, although I guess that ultimately comes down to whether you're making "gaming products" or "stuff desigined for a small circle of online friends." Not being able to get a copy of Castle Shadowcrag simply because I hadn't even heard of Open Design when it was out really bites - especially since many projects share links/information, even if they're technically 'stand alone'.
Just like Grodog, I'd certainly purchase earlier materials if they were available, attracted by the quality of current projects. Exclusivity makes you newer customers feel, well, excluded, and I think that's something worth bearing in mind.
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Recent Projects:
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| xero |
| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 67
Location: New Jersey
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Hopefully I'm not overreaching my status as a newcomer by sharing my thoughts here or in the various other threads I've commented in today.
While I understand the desire to protect the significance of one's role in any given project by limiting its availability to the general public (and hence the dilution of its perceived value), at the same time I think it would be a tremendous waste of talent, effort, and earning potential to disallow the sale of completed works in one form or another, especially given the apparent quality of these works.
Given all that, I think that the second option in this poll is the best compromise between the desire to protect and the desire to share. Limiting availability to only patrons keeps the potential pool of participants relatively shallow (at least until the Open Design model really takes off), while not preventing anyone who truly wants access to an old project from getting that access to it, albeit with the built-in markup of having to finance the current project as well. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1625
Location: Your TARDIS
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| xero wrote: |
| Hopefully I'm not overreaching my status as a newcomer by sharing my thoughts here or in the various other threads I've commented in today. |
Never. New Patrons are vital to the ongoing health of Open Design.
Besides, we're talking about how things should be managed going forward, if you have money to donate- that makes it well within your purview.
Welcome. |
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| bullonir |
| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188
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Welcome Xero!
I can only echo what Watcher said!
New blood, new ideas, new patrons: It's all good.
Patrick |
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