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| Steam and Brass |
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| Aberzanzorax |
 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: Time passes...opinions change |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 279
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Varianor...
I know this debate has played out before (though I wasn't here yet for it).
Also, Wolfgang has basically stated that he's not going to have the debate again, but others wanted to attempt to convince the four patrons who did not want it available for purchase, we were welcome to. (Not really his blessing, but not an admonishment to stop the debate).
Hence my very lengthy post.
I understand that if they choose so...if only one of them chooses so...that we should respect their wishes.
Personally, however, I want to understand their position and perhaps to convince them otherwise. I'm very willing to be flexible in how a compromise might be reached.
If they can put their finger on exactly why they wish to keep it closed, perhaps that can be addressed in a way that makes everyone happy. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
So unfortunately no, I will not sell my patronage rights, nor will I acquiesce to opening it up. In the future if I decide to get rid of my rights I will give them away, just like a patron would have given a piece of art either back to the artist or to someone that could appreciate it for its historic and artistic value. If there is ever a museum of role playing then that is probably where it will end up. |
The tough part for me isn't the ownership of the product-- I can understand your pride in the risk you took in an untested model and a developmental experiment. But no one can diminish that pride simply by having access to the end result.
Following your masterpiece analogy, this is the Mona Lisa kept in a locked room that only 100 or so people can enter. Worse yet, it is the nascent moment of the Zobeck worldspace, and while those characters, those places, those foes are not necessarily closed material, the events of that adventure are. That makes it tough for a community that would like to grow that worldspace-- as if the portion of the Sistine Chapel ceiling where Man and God are about to touch were simply cut out and left blank. The image is generous, certainly, but you can see my analogy to artwork in general. Steam and Brass is no longer an isolated project but a part of a larger work. Maintaining its exclusivity provides you no real benefit, either. You have an accomplishment no one else can appreciate except in a very distant, abstract manner. Released, many of us could and would purchase copies. We would be able to look at the material and enjoy those first few storytelling moments. Personally, I know I'd be able to point at that list of patrons and directly say, "Thank you. Your generosity enabled a fantastic concept to flourish." And the project has flourished-- indeed, allowing others to purchase second runs of the first design would only further nurture OD by supporting Wolfgang.
As a senior patron since Empire, I believe I have some understanding of the pride/generosity aspect you mention, but since absolute exclusivity was never an option for me, I guess I just don't see it in the same light. No one can be added to the list of patrons in the front of the work, it's just not going to happen. Allowing others to enjoy the work doesn't change that. I guess I have to respectfully disagree with your stance, though I understand and accept your right to maintain it.
A thing of beauty is meant to be shared. The world becomes a richer place for it. Keeping a beautiful object locked away makes the community poorer by its absence. I think even if I specifically had a project done by Wolfgang for me, and me alone, I'd still want to share that piece with others. What good would clutching it tightly do? Publicly offered, it becomes a common experience that allows me to connect with other gamers.
Perhaps I'm unique in that regard, but I'd like to hope otherwise.
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| bullonir |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188
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Hello,
(BTW, thanks you to everyone for keeping this civil. I am genuinely impressed.)
Another point of view. Mine.
I am annoyed by not having Steam & Brass. Annoyed at myself. BUT, I only joined OD with Empire of the Ghouls and then bought Castle Shadowcrag at the same time. I have participated into every project since then (except the 4E one).
I only joined at that time because I only heard about OD at that time. If I had known about it, odds are I would have bought into it.
I respect the decision of some people to restrict the project to patrons.
Maybe some things that could be done...
- Charity sales?
- There are three types of patrons. What if Wolfgang adds a fourth? Which gives the senior patron rights plus the right to buy ONE closed OD project of your choice.
That's all that comes to mind OTOH.
Although I do agree that I don't want anyone to have EASY access to what I contributed to before. Go figure. (And I said ''easy access'' and not ''no access''.)
Now that I think about it...
(And yes Wolfgang you can hate for saying this...)
What if every project had a Patron exclusive part and a ''common'' part. Sort of like Tales of Zobeck. The sourcebook will be for sale, the adventures won't. When the project closes, Patrons will still have something that is only theirs. (And then we can start another thread in a couple of years about the extras and whether we sell them or not!) 
This reminds me of the Delver's Guild argument when Ptolus came out. Monte Cook put it out for sale after a while (a bit over a year IIRC). My argument was that people should pay for it. I preordered and this was part of the special deal.
Monte sent all preorder clients a coupon so we could buy the PDF for 1$ (instead of 9$ if I remember correctly). I could buy the edited DG content but I already had it anyway. That was pretty classy of him.
But I get the feeling I am rambling at this point...
Patrick |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: In agreement with Bullonir |
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I did something similar to Bullonir.
I only joined at the time of Blood of the Gorgon. (I'm a REALLY late latecomer).
I have paid for and deeply enjoyed all of the projects that were available (as I stated previously: Empire, 6 Nights, Gorgon, and Zobek) --apart from the 4e Wrath.
Had I known about Shadowcrag and Steam and Brass, I would have bought them. I would buy them now if they were available. I'd even buy them with restrictions.
I especially like what Bullonir has suggested about making it hard to get into, but not impossible.
I'd do it with money or love of gaming. I'd even happily write an adventure for free (or as payment) in order to get a copy of one of these. (and post a link to it on these boards)
I'm not asking for a handout, by any means. Maybe a certain amount of promotion of Open Gaming could be a good way to make it possible but hard.
Heck, the harder it was to get, the more exclusive it would be and the more I'd feel like I earned/deserved it.
Maybe even running a game at the local library or somesuch to get kids playing? Volunteer for a gaming related charity? |
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| hedgeknight |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, I didn't hear about Open Design until Blood of the Gorgon was being solicited. By buying in, I was allowed to access to all of the other print editions except for the Steam and Brass project. And I've said my piece and expressed my feelings (which were not civil) in one of the OD threads about it not being available any longer.
I've over owning the original project, but a SEQUEL would be nice. 
-g- |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| varianor wrote: |
| Well, Wolfgang has already said that the topic is closed as far as Steam & Brass goes. While I can understand the desire to get ahold of the book, the original patrons want it kept exclusive and we have to respect that. As to subsequent projects? That's up to Wolfgang. (I would think if they were opened up for purchase only, not patronage, that it would be reasonable to charge signficantly more, but as a fixed increase.) |
Respectfully Varianor,
I strongly disagree with any call to silence or censor this discussion so long as it remains civil to all parties involved.
Wolfgang has said he's washed his hands of it. Wolfgang did not say it was an illegal topic that he forbids others to discuss on his boards.
If the discussion degenerates into an argument, only then let there be a call to end it.
Confronting this topic isn't a bad thing so long as every one treats each other with dignity and respect. Steam and Brass is an open wound that virtually every new patron must come to terms with. I know I did.
Actually, I have been waiting for something like this for quite some time, but I won't have time to read all the posts and make a measured reply until a good few hours from now. My hope is that the dialogue has not ended before I return. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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It didn't take me long to read the posts and come to my own conclusion on this matter.
Terraleon (Ben) spoke fairly eloquently on the topic, and referring to his post will save me a lot of time and emotional energy in responding.
I don't fathom the art collector mentality any more than I do than that of the stock market perspective. The original Mona Lisa has great value, but the whole world enjoys Leonardo's genuis. That is how we know him to be a genuis. For the world to never to have layed eyes upon such a masterpiece would have been a tragedy.
Because artwork isn't a secret.
Artwork isn't a coin hoarded in a piggybank. The power in artwork does not rest in hiding it away from the world. You show off your artwork, even while keeping it for yourself. But unlike a rare stamp, coin, or other collectable, the physical medium of this item has no great value (unless maybe it is autographed).
The problem here, as I see it, is that the resisting patrons wish their Patronages to retain its power. Unlike a rare baseball card which can be photographed or photocopied, the power in Steam and Brass is in its words. Once those words are known, the perception of value is diminished. I get it.
I doubt I have anything to say that will convince anyone to change their mind.
To this end, I am now of the opinion that there should never be another exclusive project, if this is the end result. |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: I think I may have a solution (again) |
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Ok, I just read Watcher's writing and it captures my thoughts as well.
I have yet another compromise for not just this, but potentially all projects (see the recent poll on exclusivity).
Once a project has closed, what if patrons of that project (those whose names are written on it) got a chance to add to it? Bear with me...
The power of the project is in its magnificence, as well as in the ability to say "I was there first".
I was reading Dungeon Crawl Classics #52 - Chronicle of the Fiend, which was the Gen Con 2007 Tournament Module. What they did was put pictures of the winners and sidebars about the characters who died.
What if, after the project was complete, during the next project that was going on, patrons of the actual project could send in digital photos and email play experiences? This could help EVERYONE with additional playtesting (making for better projects) but also would give a personal touch from patrons and give them a chance to shine.
Wolfgang's work (or the work involved in just the editing and layout...which might even be commissioned out) would be paid for by the increased cost of new purchasers. Patrons would get a free updated pdf of this version that would have their own experiences, their own touches, put into it. (Maybe patron is guaranteed one sidebar and or picture and senior patrons are guaranteed 2 or 3...I haven't refined this.)
So only the new version would become available to new purchasers...making it different (and keeping the original rare). It would show off the awesomeness of the other people and give the patrons a community feel in their investment.
Thoughts? |
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| jerrie luginbill |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
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Location: lynden washington
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First-My account reads Jerrie Luginbill. That is my wife. My name is Troy. How did this happen? I have no idea. But there it is. I feel if I am going to say it my name should be on it.
Now onto the discussion.
I understand how many of you feel and see your rationalization. I am coming at this from an entirely different viewpoint however and given that my metaphors are not explaining very well I will try to define my frame of reference instead.
The best term that can be used for how I am looking at this is "a collectors view." I am a collector, my job is as a collector (I am a museum curator.) In my experience I find there are 6 terms collectors use but define differently from what the normal person defines. These terms are: rarity, value, integrity, reproduction, ownership, pride.
Ownership is defined by collectors as being a custodian for an important object that represents something unique and significant culturally. There is no concept of personal ownership except as defined by social law. The object belongs to the person only in the sense that it is currently in their possession. To a collector an object has a life well beyond the collector. The object will be around for (hopefully-if collectors do their job right) for many centuries after the collector is dead. There is no concept of power or control as felt by collectors owning an object. There is only the need to protect the integrity of the object.
The integrity of an object has nothing to do with the collector. Integrity does not refer to the ethical or moral obligations, value or ownership of the object. Integrity refers to the actual cultural value of the object. If this cultural interpretation is allowed to change, or be diluted through misinterpretation or representation then the integrity of the object diminishes. The integrity of an object makes it real. If integrity is lost the object becomes less real. This can, and in my experience, does happen through reproduction of an object.
The value of an object is not the monetary value of the object. A collector does not buy to profit from an object. A collector acquires through purchase, trade or gift an object whose value needs preserving because of what it represents. A collector will oftern pay well more than the inherent value of an object because they feel that it is a small price to pay for protecting the object. A collector will often trade an object of high monetary value for an object of low monetary value simply because of the opportunity to own the new object. When a collector gets rid of an object it is often for the same or less price than was initially paid because the object is going to someone the collector trusts with maintaining the integrity of the object. In many cases the most pricey object of a collection is given as a gift to another collector because the new owner will appreciate the object the way it should be appreciated.
Collectors pride comes from the opportunity to have been a small part of the history of the object. It is knowing that they did their part to keep the object safe until it could be passed on. This is not the pride of being associated with the artist or historic figure. Many collectors are not fans or admirers of the figures their collections represent. But it is a pride of being associated with the meaning and social value represented by the object. Collectors are proud they keep safe for others the integrity of the piece.
Rarity is a term that is used normally to describe something in a supply/demand system to determine an explanation for the price. For a collector rarity is more of a value that lends depth to the integrity of a piece. George Washingtons sword has more integrity due to its association with him than another sword from the american revolution. The rarity of the piece is due more to the incidental nature of how society represents and values cultural events, not because by keeping the piece rare it obtains more monetary value. As stated previously the monetary value is so that collectors can pursue their efforts among normal people.
Which leads us to reproduction. To a collector reproducing something waters down the integrity of the object. Collectors will buy reproductions but they know that it is only a shadow of the real object. And they are often embaressed to admit they have a reproduction. To a collector reproductions are like masturbation, nice but not the real deal because there is no depth to the relationship. Unfortunately many things have been reproduced, and I will admit in some small instances that that has helped the integrity of the piece. The best example I can think of is the constitution of the US. This is a document of such weight that its intergrity actually completely supercedes the raw physical document. This is true of some works of art, but not the mona lisa. The mona lisa is an excellent example of a piece that has lost all of its original integrity. The integrity of the piece is a created integrity and changes drastically based upon what society
currently needs. The Mona Lisa is mistakenly regarded as da vinci's greatest work. This is a common misconception. No one knows what he thought of the mona lisa, he never commented on it. Even today davinci scholars regard the mona lisa as his most famous but not his best and in the whole of his works notable only because of the attention it recieves today. Why did this happen? Because its collector did a poor job of guarding its integrity, and then someone somewhere who could care less about the actual value of the mona lisa made it famous and sold some prints.
I hope this explains a little clearer my stance on the matter and how I feel about Steam and Brass. It is unique because of how it was made. Further reproduction will reduce it to a sourcebook. Which is what it will soon be if reproduced and generally sold. Someday in the future I will pass on steam and brass, either through trade or gift. What will go with it will not just be the contractual rights but also the pdf file on CD, my printed copy, the copy printed for patrons, and printed copies of my emails with wolfgang, and printed copies of the forum discussions. Why all of this? Because it is my fervent belief that something more than just a limited edition adventure occured. I hope to one day get the whole thing signed by Wolfgang, so that like a true piece of art the artists hands have directly touched it.
And to forstall the same question I constantly recieve after this discussion, "no-I especially won't go with the idea of calling the original a collectors edition. Collectors don't like collectors edition, we would rather have a signed first edition of any production run than a later collectors edition or directors cut."
I do not mean to offend anyone. This is simply how I view the world and Steam and Brass. If you would like to read between the lines...yes I don't trust the late or non-patrons. They showed up late to the party, everybodies rocking out and now want to have their music played. How does that demonstrate to me that they will be invested in keeping the integrity of the piece alive? I think that Wolfgang has made an okay compromise by allowing late comers to join in an already commissioned project given that they agree no changes to the project occure after commission. I do not agree that late comers should have the ability to buy the previous open design. but then again I am not Wolfgang and this is his thing.
hope this helps with the understanding. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
First-My account reads Jerrie Luginbill. That is my wife. My name is Troy. How did this happen? I have no idea. But there it is. I feel if I am going to say it my name should be on it.
Now onto the discussion.
*a considerate and eloquent explanation.*
hope this helps with the understanding. |
It does, Troy.
Perhaps I would make our point better if I used a more appropriate example.
Consider the Epic of Gilgamesh or the stories of Beowulf. I'm certain we would both agree that the original tablets and manuscripts deserve preservation in their original state. Mass producing replicas is unnecessary and inappropriate. However, it is the nature of stories to be told, shared, spread. In doing so, the true power of the materials to inspire and entertain is exercised. Stories that languish fade from memory and cannot contribute to the genre to which they belong.
I don't want to own Steam & Brass as you do. I don't need to. That's the beauty of your commission and the end result-- but why should the story be hidden away from everyone else? Consider what a deficit we might have in our own hobby if The Hobbit had never been read beyond the Inklings or if The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe had stayed the unique gift of a small child? You lament that Steam & Brass could become a sourcebook-- I lament that it cannot be referenced. How can we build upon stories that are not shared? How can we sustain a tale that we sequester? For the bulk of us, there is a gap in the community history of Zobeck, and that's unfortunate.
You have the signed, gilded, leatherbound first edition. We're considering the second run reference paperback. They're two completely different animals. For instance, what if this hypothetical second run had new artwork and possibly omitted the Designer's Notes? Or no artwork at all? Would this be sufficient change to meet the condition of preserving the integrity of your edition? Again, I don't want to impinge upon the integrity of your project, but I desperately want the shared experience of the story. Certainly you can sympathize with that sentiment?
I know I appreciate the nature of secret, limited edition prints and projects. They are a sort of milestone that one might proudly display as proof positive that you participated and contributed, your marks of St. Crispin's day. However, how appreciated could such a volume be if no one knows what happened on that field? A monument requires context and I believe, that as curator, you will agree with that.
-Ben.
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progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| jerrie luginbill |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
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Location: lynden washington
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I can certainly agree with the idea that the knowledge could, and should be distributed, and have no problem with the recognition of the importance of Wolfgang's creation (not just Steam and Brass but how it represents Open Design.) My concern would be in making sure that monument and the context are represented correctly. I have yet to see anyone come up with anything other than a variation on the collectors edition vs regular printing edition. That is still reproduction and in my opinion will devalue not just steam and brass the basic premise of open design.
I would imagine that the shared experience of the story behind steam and brass would be actual participation in the adventure. There is no one out there saying you cannot play steam and brass, just that it cannot be reprinted for general publication (to anyone who wasn't a patron). I would in no way disagree with Wolfgang running it in his basement or at a convention. If run at a convention I would hope that he would preface it in the context of open design and give people an opportunity to comment/ask questions about open design. I would hope the same would happen in his basement.
Changing the content for a second reference printing through artwork, designers notes etc. would actually move more towards the idea of having it watered down. With each change to the original content the integrity of it is lost. I was actually disappointed in the quality of the printed piece. It was done in black and white. My self printed version is much snazzier and higher quality.
As for there being a gap in the Zobeck community I will only wait until after tales of Zobeck is out to comment. My understanding is that it will contain at least detailed references to many places in Steam and Brass if not outright source material such as maps and personalities.
And as I write this I do hit upon an odd compromise. People seem to be concerned more for lack of access to a story than to content. I would be happy to see a novel/graphic novel about Steam and Brass written. It would in no way (as long as it held true to the original content of the adventure-no changes in NPCs, locations, descriptions, etc) impinge upon the integrity of the project (as long as it held true to the story/context of zobeck) nor directly reproduce content. It would also be a unique example of the influence Open Design has/is having on both the literary and gaming world. An example might be the dragon lance trilogy with the modules. I think they were done poorly and damaged the vision of the modules but could have been done well and with much more of an eye to supporting the modules and consequently the play experience. And while cool and I enjoyed them, I don't think the lord of the rings movies were a fair or accurate representation of Tolkien's work and were damaging to the context of Tokien's work not expanding.
If Steam and Brass becomes as epic as Gilgamesh, Narnia or Hobbit I will be unable to contain it and my desires are moot point. By then I shouldn't have to worryas, like the constitution, it will have escaped beyond the bounds of its own written word. Until then I (and hopefully the other patrons) will have to make sure that it is not lost amongst the noise of its own perceived importance.
To me Steam and Brass does not just represent a unique achievement among the gaming community. This is one of the first (and the first I have had direct experience with) of the new model businesses driven by the capabilities of the internet. The last time in history anything like this was seen was in the late industrial age (c.1900) when mass produced hand tools and a wealthy middle class allowed for home shops and small business to be economically viable. This is a time during which a surge of small business based upon invention was seen. We are beginning to see this with the internet. No longer is innovation a corporate effort. Steam and Brass and Open Design are notable because they are the first of their kind and represent potentially a huge change in the world culture. I am not just looking to the integrity of the art itself but to the integrity of what the art represents on a cultural scale.
With this in mind while I wholly subscribe to the idea that art is best shared and I do feel that Steam and Brass is a work of art. The cultural context of Steam and Brass wholly supersedes its value as art though, and that if the cultural context is lost the value of the art will diminish and disappear making sharing it detrimental to the piece. I know this sounds counterintuitive but it is the pattern in human history. For every epic story ever told there were thousands lost because no one recognized their value and either lost it in the mists of time or changed it so much its value was lost due to change.
Through simple action on my part I can make sure its value is retained. In the future the changing context of human culture will certainly make its value fluxuate. Wolfgang may become the most dastardly evil genius of our time and blow up the moon, but until that happens I will have to stand by my decision to maintain this as a patron only project. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
If Steam and Brass becomes as epic as Gilgamesh, Narnia or Hobbit I will be unable to contain it and my desires are moot point. By then I shouldn't have to worryas, like the constitution, it will have escaped beyond the bounds of its own written word. Until then I (and hopefully the other patrons) will have to make sure that it is not lost amongst the noise of its own perceived importance.
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Yet through your actions you ensure that will never happen, because it cannot be shared. It is limited to the interpretation of the material through the lense of a GM and only accessible to those lucky few who can convince a patron to run the adventure. That severely restricts the potential audience.
| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
With this in mind while I wholly subscribe to the idea that art is best shared and I do feel that Steam and Brass is a work of art. The cultural context of Steam and Brass wholly supersedes its value as art though, and that if the cultural context is lost the value of the art will diminish and disappear making sharing it detrimental to the piece. I know this sounds counterintuitive but it is the pattern in human history. For every epic story ever told there were thousands lost because no one recognized their value and either lost it in the mists of time or changed it so much its value was lost due to change.
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However, no one's suggesting that the story be altered. No one's suggesting that context be altered. The piece is static, and the ability of others to read the piece cannot diminish the experience of development. Reading the piece doesn't remove it from that context of development. I'm confused on the basis for these concerns-- can you clarify your position?
How does my appreciation of the material remove it from context? How do I change the material through reading it? The story remains and, if anything, its reputation grows through its impact on those who read it.
It seems you're focusing on the actual physical printing and distribution of the original project, and imbuing it with the value-- as opposed to the experience and story.
| jerrie luginbill wrote: |
Through simple action on my part I can make sure its value is retained. In the future the changing context of human culture will certainly make its value fluxuate. Wolfgang may become the most dastardly evil genius of our time and blow up the moon, but until that happens I will have to stand by my decision to maintain this as a patron only project. |
The value of the project, as I see it-- and perhaps this is the disconnect-- is in the experience, the process of creating and contributing to the work. That's the immutable and unreproducible benefit to this model. You cannot gain the insights of the extended discussions, the debates, the cooperative consensus of various decision points within the project by accessing the final work. You receive the benefits through the improved quality of the end result, but the process that generates the product is ephemeral and demands participation for the greatest dividends.
You and the fellow patrons of OD1 have an experience that cannot be duplicated. It cannot be taken. It cannot be traded. It cannot be gifted after the fact. You participated in the nascent moments of what the industry has recognized as an innovative process. That is priceless and the true benefit of your patronage. Claiming that the work itself is debased with shared possession of the story seems ill-focused. If anything, we appreciate the value of the risks taken and wish to encourage repeat performance.
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| jerrie luginbill |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
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Location: lynden washington
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I guess after listening to everyones arguments the final disagreement comes from the opinion that through sharing art it doesn't change. I disagree with this. Every new experience with the artwork causes the art to change, this is because of the nature of art and the requirement to bring a personal interaction to it. To view art and not desire to share your opinion would indicate some serious social disconnect. In allowing others to republish Steam and Brass I feel I am diminishing my role in it and the actual piece itself. Will everyone who uses the piece stick wholly to the intended vision of Zobeck? I doubt it. Will they tweak, change and fiddle with the thing, make their own statements about "their" experience with Steam and Brass and how they would change it if they had made it? Yes absolutely. Will the changed Steam and Brass represent the Open Design process? No. Hence my intent has failed.
I would be more than happy to open Steam and Brass up to general publication if someone can prove to me that it won't take on multiple iterations and will somehow remain true to, and stand as, a representation of the original intent of Patron supported design. Just by republishing it the patron model is busted wide open. If the case is to allow anyone that decides they missed out to become a patron of any previous project then that is not patronage. That is a club membership discount.
If the crux of everyones concern is that the content is not the important part of the piece but instead the experience of being part of the design process then you should all be more interested in the bits and emails I kept from the forums during the design not the design itself. I am sure that Wolfgang will release any and all of those other than some of the essays (which were stated to be closed). In one sense everyone will tell me that the important part of the project is the experience and then ask for a copy of steam and brass. Without the experience how can you value the content for anything more than a sourcebook? Yet it seems very important that this source be made available. Why? So people can imagine what the experience was like?
At this point I have to ask why does everyone want Steam and Brass so badly? Is it because it is something you can't have? You have all already stated the experience is the important part, and you can, by your own admission, never have that (or apparently take it away from me.) I can tell you there is nothing in Steam and Brass that explains game design. No essays, no comments, nothing. Its layout is the same layout that is used by Wolfgang for pretty much all of his stuff so far. It is in and of itself an adventure with no innovation other than a well written adventure in a steam punk setting (and a cool clockwork naga). The innovation lies in how the piece was designed not in the game content. I am sure that it is not the only steam punk adventure out there. And much of the sourcebook material will apparently be made available in the upcoming gazeteer. With even some changes to the history as presented in Steam and Brass so that will no longer be "official" content.
Do you guys want it because it represents a hole in your collection? If you had it could you then state with pride "I have all of the open design adventures!" ? I personally have been here from the beginning and I haven't caught them all.
Is the desire to have it so that your zobeck game is 100% official? Come on, there is no gamer out there that goes by 100% official content. If you come across something not detailed by Steam and Brass (or any other source material) that relates to your adventure will you stop everything and call Wolfgang and ask him what should be in that blank bit on the map?
Are you guys simply pissed off at three people having the "power". That term has come up numerous times. What power do I have? The power to say no you cannot republish or own a copy of this? Yes, I do. Do I have the power to say you cannot read this? You all seem to think that is the case, but you can read it all you want. If you really want to I will let you come to my house have a beer and look at it. I have heard numbers as high as $400.00 bandied about that should get a good bus ticket. (no I will not mail it.) Do I have the power to say you cannot play this? Again everyone seems to think this, but you can play the module all you want. Call up Wolfgang and ask him to borrow his copy.
Are you mad that I won't agree with your arguments or that I continue arguing? I have been defending my position for years. Every new project has people that decide they want a copy for whatever reason. I have been offered to have it bought (for well more than I paid for it.) I have been threatened with a law suit, I have been cussed at, called names and even called at work to discuss the topic. Those that are most tenacious ultimately could care less about Zobeck or Steam and Brass. They just want me to tell them they are right and I am wrong.
Are you mad because I am violating some perceived ethical social contract? Take this discussion down to an art college and see what kind of consensus you get. I did that at WWU soon after the first request to open Steam and Brass was received, just so that I could get a clear view of the boundaries of this subject. There was a whole class discussion on it in Dutch Impressionism. There were about as many ideas of what was right and wrong in a social context as there were students, teachers and visitors in the class. I walked away more confused than anything.
I reiterate. The importance of Steam and Brass to me is two fold. 1. It represents an important change in the basic world culture. I do not want that lost just because some people are mad they can't own it. Secondly I was a direct observer and part of this particular cultural change. So there is some personal connection to it for me.
At this point I guess I have to take back the statement "I understand why you guys want steam and brass". If you have a reason other than one that falls under the above questions then let me hear it. Elsewise when it comes to the values and actions surrounding human art in a social context we will have to agree to disagree. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2032
Location: upstate NY
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You're most certainly missing my point.
I, personally, want Steam & Brass so that I understand the complete shared story-space of Zobeck to this point. I would like to see how the Cults of Mammon were used. I'd like to see how clockwork naga is used and its role. I'm interested in how the characters are hooked and what devices are used to create investment in the storyline.
The shape and form of that product is unimportant. I don't need all the artwork. I don't need (though I always find them interesting) the designer notes. I want the story, as it contributes to the greater tapestry of Zobeck.
Your fears about the mutability of the piece are, again, misdirected. The experience of Steam & Brass' production is complete-- how can another individual possessing the product alter your experience? I need not ever share my impressions of the piece to use it in better understanding the Zobeck canon or crafting an adventure that better invests the players in the results. That certainly says nothing about my social connectivity-- and I'll write that comment off on the lack of inflection inherent in text.
The piece itself cannot change without Wolfgang modifying it-- I'm confused how you believe it will be. For me, this has nothing to do with collecting all of Open Design's projects. This has nothing to do with running a "100% official" Zobeck game. This has nothing to do with anyone's perceived "power." I don't care if you think you're right, that's immaterial. And while I appreciate the offer to hang out and read it in your home, that's impractical. Your suggestion of a novel or graphic novel is also impractical, because it would entail either a volunteer from the OD1 patron population sanctioned by Wolfgang to execute the project or a dedicated effort by Wolfgang-- which means he would likely be unavailable for other OD projects as he writes or collaborates.
The gazetteer isn't going to go into the particulars of the story-- and that's the meat of the product that concerns me. Stat blocks and maps aren't terribly important in my opinion. For me, this is about the art of storytelling and its implementation within Steam & Brass, combined with the role this story has within the greater canon of the Zobeck setting. It's about understanding nuances of characters as they were presented, seeing small details or characters of the setting that might have seemed too unimportant for inclusion to the gazetteer but could provide inspiration for future material.
I can't alter your Steam & Brass development experience, I have no desire to do so. I look at the product with the eye of a historian or storyteller who wants to better understand the whole shared Zobeck setting. Hoarding the Steam & Brass story simply confounds me. As if you've said, "There is this well-written adventure here you'd probably like. Read it for yourself? Oh, no. No, not unless you're lucky enough to live nearby. But it is well done. Too bad." I've resigned myself to the fact that I'll need to settle for the gazetteer, that the story will be lost to 50 bookshelves and indirect reference and that's unfortunate.
-Ben.
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progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| hedgeknight |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 122
Location: NC
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I have two points and then I'm done with this thread:
1/ I am astounded at the level of professional, appropriate discussion that has occurred thus far. The next time I am in an argument with my wife, I'm gonna hit up one or more of you fellers.
2/ This issue is like flogging a dead horse - it gets you nowhere. The "fab four" have exclusive rights to this project and they are not about to give up those rights. Period. It's like if moving into a neighborhood and you're the new kid. There are already a group of kids in the neighborhood that are playing together, have been playing together for some time. Let's say they are playing kick ball and you want to play.
They say no. You say please. They say no. You say, "I'm a really good at kick ball." They say go home. You say, "I can bring my own ball." They say, "We have our own ball and don't want yours." You say, "It's not fair! I'm now a kid in this neighborhood." They say, "We don't care - we were here first! Go find other kids to play with and leave us alone."
Get what I'm saying? Steam and Brass is NEVER gonna open up to the general or even the patron gaming public. So far the conversation has been civil, but if it keeps going, it's gonna get ugly. Just like kids, if the new kid keeps harassing the group, patience will eventually run out and the civility will end. It's just human nature.
So...if you/we want a "steam and brass" type project, then you/we are gonna have to create one - we're gonna have to find "other kids to play with."  |
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