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Armoury99
PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: 4e Adventure Design: First Impressions Reply with quote

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4e Adventure Design: First Impressions

I was mentioned on the Wrath project (and Wolfgang's review of Keep on the Shadowfell) that it would be nice to get some feedback on 4e from a design prospective, so I'b quickly banged out my thoughts: These are strictly my first impressions. I reserve the right to change my mind once I've played/DM'd for a bit. Very Happy

I’ve had the books for a week now and I’m still feeling very ambiguous about the thing. The proof of a pudding is in the eating however, and I’m determined to actually try it for a few levels before making my decision. My plan is to run the first few adventures of a new campaign, taking the PCs to 4th level (and ready for Wrath of the River King). Since that scenario seems to deal with the Fey/Feywild, I’m going to go in the other direction and delve into the Shadowfell, undead, etc… and kobolds, because they make such a satisfying crunch and hopefully I can field a lot of them under the new system. First step was working out exactly what I wanted to do and could achieve with 4e. I want to completely ‘play by the rules’ for this one, so I had a browse through the PHB, DMG, and MM and compared what was there with a couple of 1st level adventure plots that worked well in the last 3 editions. Here are my first thoughts from a DM/Design prospective:

Player’s Hand Book

Balanced PCs good. Lack of abilities that aren’t combat focused, bad. In its defence D&D has always been combat focused; maybe it just seems like overload because the non-magic classes have combat powers too?

More powerful PCs

This is hardly an insurmountable problem, but I’ll have to expand the background of PCs a bit, as “just average village folk” doesn’t really justify their abilities. New high hp totals and the various ‘top-up’ abilities will take some getting used to. The presence of minions in the MM will also increase the sense that the PCs are above the norm, even at 1st level. We’re definitely in fantasy territory, emphasis on the high (teleporting around the battlefield at first level, for example).

I think that (at least initially) PCs will be tempted to blow their Powers early on and rely on Healing Surges to see them through. Since 3-4 surges takes a character from badly injured to full health and even the wizard has 10+ of these, I estimate that the party will go at least five or six encounters before a break. Surges rather than Powers, will probably be the catalyst for calling halt, unless they think they’re about to confront a major villain.

The new negative hp system seems to make it easier to incapacitate a party without killing half of them. “We got beat and captured” looks like a slightly more viable story option for DMs, although I’m not sold on the minimalist ‘subdual’ rule in the PHB.

Tieflings and Dragonborn are harder than normal to work in alongside normal PC races (Eladrin suffer this a little as well), but that’s mainly a setting changeover problem. I’m slightly annoyed that a setting which has such an allegedly strong fey influence couldn’t make room for gnomes but could apparently manage three kinds of elf.

Combat

I don’t think that combats will actually be over quicker in the new edition, given increased player options and increased monster numbers (although minions help), and traps/hazards.

It’s a game of bonuses. A lot of bonuses.

Hit points are best described as “resolve”, “vigour”, “fatigue” etc. Not injuries. I expect PCs to generally have a much more blasé attitude to their hp.

On the downside… I really don’t see how you can play this game without miniatures. All those shifts and slides and shuffles and close range Powers really need you to be looking at a battle-map. I know that miniatures add an extra level of tactical complexity to a fight (and give players something to look at when it’s not their turn), but I just miss the fluidity and DM control that came with a purely narrative approach.

Concerned about how things that previously anybody could do (or at least attempt) have become Powers for specific classes (trips, disarms, and two weapon fighting for example).

Some of the powers are either too blatantly “magical” for low level (teleport) or are just nonsensical to me as powers rather than PC strategies (e.g. challenging/marking enemies, preventing them from moving, etc). Need to adjust my expectations of ‘realism’ for the game.

Rituals

I’m really not sure how the removal of everything not explosive will impact on the wizards and clerics who didn’t specialise in boom-magic and buffs. The long casting time of rituals makes them essentially unusable in combat, so the creative use of ‘non-combat’ magic in battle is probably out in favour of At Will blast powers…And I expect the players to be blasting every round, unlike earlier editions. Not sure if they’ll be saving their big Powers for later fights or not, in just the same way that 3e wizard did?

Alignment

Yuk. It’s been pruned back to bare minimum while still remaining largely incomprehensible (stayed true to the spirit of the old version then, hehe). System seems even more of a straitjacket than before, although Unaligned is a nice addition, and I imagine it’ll be a popular choice with players. Maybe new people would have an easier time understanding the system than those who knew the old one?

I couldn’t see any mechanical rules or implications for alignment at all, except for a note that paladins and clerics have to be of the alignment of their god.

Dungeon Master’s Guide

This has much better info on adventure design and running a game than any previous edition of D&D, and kudos for it. It will all be well known to experienced DMs and there’s not as much RP as G in their RPG advice, but it’s good to see so much wordcount on getting it right for new DMs.

Encounter Design

Encounter design seems clearer, with templates for different kinds of fight and finally some guidance on non-combat challenges. It’s nice to see it in the rules, but it’s brief and feels like an afterthought. Looks workable, but I think we called this bit “DMing” in earlier editions.

All the rules I needed were there, and everything was simple... too simple in more than a few cases. If this hadn't been D&D I wouldn't have batted an eyelid at the omissions however; more recent systems just provide the general framework and say "you're DM, go for it" instead of spoon-feeding you every rule, as D&D has tended to for many years.

Traps and hazards as combat encounters look good.

There doesn’t seem to be a standard “four encounters per day” rule anymore. As above, I’m estimating 5-6 combats per day, but it could be more. I wonder if Keep on the Shadowfell had any suggestions on this?

No Sense of World

There’s really no sense of setting in any of the books, but especially here. Dragonborn are “descendents of a dragon god and an ancient empire” and that’s it (at least the Tiefling empire had a name!) Gods get a paragraph and three commandments each, etc etc. This leaves at lot of things adrift in the aether and undefined – but it’s a gift to homebrew fans.

Monster Manual

Oh dear. Had to shelve just about all my 3e ideas about a balanced setting at this stage. There are no “Good” monsters…. even unicorns are now “unaligned” apparently. There’s no attempt at balance between light and dark, no monsters designed to be a problem for PCs while not being horribly evil. No attempt at complexity or depth in the personality (and compared to 3e’s attempt, frankly that’s saying something). Everything is presented as a 5-round-life combat threat, with absolutely nothing to guide me on using it in a more meaningful fashion. Mental note to self: New players are likely to come to my game with an “if it’s in front of me it’s to be killed!” mentality (3e was guilty of this too however). I should be able to beat it out of them eventually though.

I’m also concerned that monsters have lost many of the magical powers they had previously. Maybe rituals can pick up the slack here?

Conclusion (so far)

I’m aware that I’m leaving a considerable comfort zone of 3e knowledge and experience behind, and it’s probably influencing my opinions. The last three edition shifts all bent over backwards to still look like D&D (sometimes to their detriment), and this one definitely doesn’t.

What do I think so far? Well, there’s a strong focus is on getting new people involved, and they’ve concentrated on a few things at the expense of detail in other areas (or avoided spreading themselves too thin, depending how you look at it). For me it waggles back and forth over the line between streamlining and oversimplifying. If this had come out independent of D&D (or as an OGL-based product), I’d have probably thought “wow! That’s a nice take on upping the cinematic action quota!” - but not really thought of it as D&D. It doesn’t feel like the previous editions to me at present, which is a shame from the new core line. I think that it sets out its stall in a different genre, and moves closer to cinematic action games like Feng Shui in its design principles; this makes me slightly more confident for the survival of 3.5/Pathfinder if nothing else.

If I end up liking 4e and making it my default D&D game, it will be with that genre in mind; I’ll go to another system for a better horror, low fantasy, or simulationist experience, just as I do with 3e. The difference is that (perhaps) the genre in 4th Ed is more fixed into the system than previously; I saw 3e holding a rough middle ground in (high) fantasy, customisable 'higher' or 'lower' as I desired. Not so with 4e so far. Doesn't mean its a bad game though - just a different one.
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ve4grm
PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



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I don't disagree with much of what you report here, though my impressions of it are different (I like much of what you're unsure of), but I do want to address a few things.

Quote:
just nonsensical to me as powers rather than PC strategies (e.g. challenging/marking enemies, preventing them from moving, etc).


While true that with a good DM, these things can be dealt with purely through RP, not every group has a good DM.

Fighter: "I stab the ogre and call out, saying 'Deal with me first, scum!'"
Bad DM: "Okay. He attacks the Wizard for 30, killing him."

Without any mechanical backing for this sort of thing, it's inconsistent at best.

Quote:
Not sure if they’ll be saving their big Powers for later fights or not, in just the same way that 3e wizard did?


They'll learn to. In my experience thus far, blowing your dailies too early is a good way to die. You learn quickly to save them for when they're really necessary.

Quote:
There doesn’t seem to be a standard “four encounters per day” rule anymore. As above, I’m estimating 5-6 combats per day, but it could be more. I wonder if Keep on the Shadowfell had any suggestions on this?


So far as I can tell, no, there is no general rule on this. The only limit seems to be healing surges and daily powers. But there is one more thing that can help you decide.

You level up every 10-ish encounters, you can only level up at an extended rest (sleeping), and you can only take an extended rest once per day (effectively). As such, more than 10 encounters in a day is probably excessive.

Quote:
I’m also concerned that monsters have lost many of the magical powers they had previously. Maybe rituals can pick up the slack here?


My reading of it is that they have lost the ability to perform those magical abilities in combat. Stat blocks, after all, are solely their combat statistics. Beyond that, they can do whatever is thematically appropriate for your game.

Quote:
There’s no attempt at balance between light and dark, no monsters designed to be a problem for PCs while not being horribly evil.


Sure there are. Those kind of monsters exist all over the place.

But do you need a stat block for them?

Nah, these books won't be for everyone. That's a given. I hope you enjoy them, even if it's not your primary game. I'm somewhat biased for the new rules, since my players are primarily new players, and thus streamlining and simplification outweigh any negatives here.
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Amy Carrier
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: 4e Adventure Design: First Impressions Reply with quote

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Armoury99 wrote:
4e Adventure Design: First Impressions
...
I’ve had the books for a week now and I’m still feeling very ambiguous about the thing.
...



Your original post was about six months ago; I would be very interested to hear how you feel about 4E now that half a year has passed.
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varianor
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Indeed. I feel that 4E seems mechanically more consistent, yet the wonderful flavor found in past editions has been eliminated almost everywhere.
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Armoury99
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: 4e Adventure Design: First Impressions Reply with quote

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Amy Carrier wrote:
Your original post was about six months ago; I would be very interested to hear how you feel about 4E now that half a year has passed.


I'll gather my thoughts.
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Amy Carrier
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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varianor wrote:
Indeed. I feel that 4E seems mechanically more consistent, yet the wonderful flavor found in past editions has been eliminated almost everywhere.


I agree. It seems much more abstract now, with all the emphasis on combat and virtually no attention paid to setting and "atmosphere". If the trend continues, after a few more editions it will be just a more complex version of chess.
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xero
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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It's funny, but my group has been spending far more time role playing in 4E than they ever did in 3E. Where in 3E we used to spend precious time debating, refreshing, and researching the rules of role playing, in 4E the players just go with it, and the DM rarely has to interrupt for a mechanics ruling. In fact, we haven't had a *real* combat encounter in the last two sessions, and no one has complained about the lack of role playing support in 4E. These last two sessions may have been some of the funnest sessions this group has EVER played in together, in any edition.

I get the impression that most of the Edition Wars complaints on either side of the fence can be chalked up to different play styles and tastes, which I believe speaks for the subjective quality of both editions.
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tiger_tim_gamer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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yes, the edition wars is a lot about style and taste, but that is not the core issue. The real issues it that too many people think that the style they play and the flavor they like is the ** correct ** (and only) way to play.

You like the style and flavor of 4th. I can understand and respect that.

But a lot of people can't (how can they, to them your playing the game wrong!).

Think of it this way, if I say (and truly mean), I am glad that you found a game that you can enjoy. That does not cause a problem.

But if I start to tell you how the game you play is wrong (which means there must be something wrong with you for liking and playing it) that is going to cause problems.

I would not say that it is differences in style that cause the problem, I would say that it is intolerance.
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Zherog
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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And I, for one, have no tolerance for people who are intolerant!

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Dan Voyce
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Intolerant people should be shot.
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Amy Carrier
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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tiger_tim_gamer wrote:
... The real issues it that too many people think that the style they play and the flavor they like is the ** correct ** (and only) way to play...


That certainly must be a huge part of it. After all, people have been doing exactly the same thing over everything from religion to clothing fashions ever since the dawn of time.

However, it seems to me that WotC/Hasbro may have not-so-subtly encouraged at least some of the "us against them" mentality. While they never explicitly said "if you stick with the old edition you’re a dumb looser and you suck", they have certainly made a huge effort to encourage people to make the switch. Sadly, that includes not only halting all WotC support for the previous edition, but also discouraging other companies from providing 3E support (as exemplified by their revocation of the d20 license). To be fair, they could have been **very** much harsher in their treatment of companies offering 3E-compatible products, but they also could have just left them alone.

Thus, some people feel pressured to make the switch ("If you don’t play the edition we want you to play, we won’t let you play anything at all!") That breeds hard feelings for sure.
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Neal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Amy, I'm not sure that's a particularly fair assessment of what Wizards has done - though it is true, to a certain extent.

I remember the switch from 2nd Edition AD&D to 3rd fairly well, and I don't remember Wizards making a concerted effort to continue to push out products for 2e after the 3e launch; they incentivized players to switch by cutting off support for previous editions. So I think what Wizards is doing now is fairly predictable and perfectly in line with what I've seen various RPG companies do after an edition switch.

Of course, there wasn't an OGL for 2nd edition, so I think the situations are disanalogous to a certain extent. But I think it's pretty clear that Wizards has no clear duty to provide content and support for an "obsolete" (in their view, at least) game.

Should I be wrong, then I would hope Wizards would support games and settings that don't boast several hundred thousand pages of third party supplementary material. If ever there was an "obsolete" system that clearly didn't need additional support it's 3e; most of my favorite books for 3e were all third party ("Beyond Countless Doorways," anyone?), and I've only used maybe two of the figurative tons of books I own in an actual game. I have enough 3e stuff to surprise my group for the rest of our natural lives.

On the other hand, should Wizards have a heretofore unknown moral obligation to support old material, I'd certainly be first in line for new 2e Dark Sun supplements!

-neal
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tiger_tim_gamer
PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Well, I am with Amy on this one. I used to go to the WOTC forums every day and I felt a part of the community. Long before the switch to 4th edition, things started to happen that for my game were not good. When 4th edition actually hit, things got really unfriendly. Moreover, while the moves the company made did make sense from their perspective, they were not what I wanted. More and more the underlying message seemed to me ‘get on board with the new edition or go away’. So eventually, I went away.

I understand that for a company to survive it has to focus on profits, that said, I think as a consumer is important to be true to your own point of view. If what WOTC offers is worth the cost, get their product. However, for me, for now, I am happy with 3rd edition. If I felt that they as a company were OK with that, I would still frequent their website. But, sadly, I don’t feel any sense of welcome there any longer.

The truth is I love the game – not the company that makes the game.
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Amy Carrier
PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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tiger_tim_gamer wrote:
The truth is I love the game – not the company that makes the game.


Likewise - I've been thinking about it quite a lot since I first posted to this thread, and I think I've finally identified one of the things that made me feel alienated: WotC's ad campaign gradually came to feel more like a propaganda campaign. I too used to visit the WotC website quite often, but I haven't been there in months.
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tzu-theory
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



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xero wrote:
It's funny, but my group has been spending far more time role playing in 4E than they ever did in 3E. Where in 3E we used to spend precious time debating, refreshing, and researching the rules of role playing, in 4E the players just go with it, and the DM rarely has to interrupt for a mechanics ruling.


This has been my exact experience with 4e. While I love things from each of the other editions I have played (AD&D through 4e), I must say I really enjoy 4e. I guess without writing an entire article on what I like, it would have to be the increased sense of teamwork and the spirit of working together. This plays both in combat and non-combat encounters.

Is it perfect? No, but it very much gives me the fresh experience of excitement that could have easily died a month or two after it's release.

I give 4e 2-thumbs up...
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