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[Rules Question, PFRPG] Elfmarked feat?

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xellos

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: [Rules Question, PFRPG] Elfmarked feat?

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What is the Elfmarked feat (MCS, p. 27) supposed to do? ^_^;

According to the text description, the Elfmarked race uses the Pathfinder rules for half-elves. The prerequisite for the feat is Elfmarked, but the benefit the feat gives is a trait that standard Pathfinder half-elves already possess. Am I missing something there? It wouldn't be entirely redundant- an elfmarked character could then take an alternate racial trait, for example, but I don't think that was the intent.

If I'm not missing something, then there are a few ways I could think of addressing it. If the prerequisite was human, for example, the feat could apply to a human with elven blood- enough to be considered Elfmarked, but not quite enough to be considered a half-elf.
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Wolfgang

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject:

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So my intention is that the only way to become Elf-marked is to take the elf-marked feat; the feat is a prereq for the race, rather than the other way around.

Elf-marked also provides the other benefits of giving that character access to elvish magic.
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einherjar

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject:

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Just to be clear, a character needs to use up one feat to become elf-marked, and is then considered a half-elf according to PFRPG rules?

(creating an elf-marked NPC for Midgard Tales and want to know if she needs to burn a feat to be elf-marked) Smile

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Wolfgang

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject:

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According to house rules, yes, if you choose the feat at character generation, you're essentially a half-elf. There are no full elves in the home game.
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Wolfgang Baur
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einherjar

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:21 am Post subject:

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Wolfgang wrote:

According to house rules, yes, if you choose the feat at character generation, you're essentially a half-elf. There are no full elves in the home game.

A thought just occurred to me. One would have to be human to take the elf-marked feat right? And thus get an extra feat for being human at 1st level? Making the choice of the feat somewhat less of a "burn".

Also, would the character in question be: human (elfmarked) on a statblock?
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Wolfgang

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:26 am Post subject:

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Not meant to be a burn at all. If you want to be elf-marked, you give up your extra human feat to be elf-marked. Done.
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Wolfgang Baur
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einherjar

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:16 am Post subject:

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Wolfgang,

Okay. I must admit now to being completely confused! I'm not even sure what the question I want answered is, let alone how best to approach asking the question.

Look, I love the concept thematically - it reminds me a lot of the Shiua "halfling" qhal of Ohtij-in in C.J. Cherryh's Well of Shiuan, the second novel in the Chronicles of Morgaine - debased half-castes paying homage to lost glory - exactly how I picture the Valerans and the Arbonessen. However I just keep on going around in circles trying to reconcile the wording in the CS, the feat itself and the PF Core Rulebook.

The Midgard Campaign setting states just above the feat:

"The elfmarked are similar to half-elves...and use the Pathfinder RPG racial traits for half-elves. In addition some might have the Elfmarked feat..." (emphasis mine)

In this case, as read, a player wishing to play an elfmarked character is a half-elf in game terms, but must take the elfmarked feat to also be treated as elf and human for "the purpose of taking traits, how spells and magic items affect you and so on."

But xellos' question and your answer got me thinking. My question was:

einherjar wrote:

One would have to be human to take the elf-marked feat right?

to which you replied:

Wolfgang wrote:

If you want to be elf-marked, you give up your extra human feat to be elf-marked

.

This seems to be confirming my question as correct - humans take the elf-marked feat to be elf-marked. However this raises some further questions: if a human takes the elf-marked feat and is then a half-elf as per the PFRPG rules does she then have all the attributes of a half-elf in the PFCRB (low light vision, adaptability, elven immunities, keen senses, multitalented)? The feat doesn't seem to infer this, but the "elfmarked are similar to half-elves and use the PFRPG racial traits for half-elves" makes it very confusing indeed...What of the human extra skills ability? By the PF rules have you started with a human chassis and placed a half-elf over it by spending your free feat and becoming elf-marked?

I fear that somewhere between the writeup above the feat, the feat itself and the PFRPG there is a disconnect.

Putting it clearly - are there half-elves in the Midgard CS or are there only humans with the elf-marked feat? Or is the elf-marked feat open to humans and half-elves - and is really just a measure of how elf-marked one really is. Though I can't really imagine a half-elf without the elf-marked feat, and it seems unfair for them to have to choose it. The feat is in the elves and the elf-marked section - not the human section and only mentions half-elves in relation to the feat - not humans and that the prereq is "elfmarked".

Hope you can see my confusion... I can't seem to put it all clearly enough to make it simple and easily readable. Not sure why I'm the only thicky (as 99bullets would put it) who can't seem to grok it... Confused

xellos

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:47 am Post subject:

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You're not. ^_^

My initial confusion stemmed from the idea that the ability to use Elvish Magic is one of the traits that half-elves already possess under the normal rules, so if elfmarked use the standard half-elf stats, the feat wouldn't be doing anything but granting access to those half-elf stats. That wouldn't necessarily be wrong in any given campaign, but since that Elvish Magic portion was specifically included in the feat description, it didn't seem to me like that was the intent.

There are ways to make it slightly more useful mechanically for a player more-or-less as-is. If a human could take the feat, for example, I wouldn't say that they use the half-elf stats, I would say they could be elfmarked and use Elvish Magic, but otherwise use the human stats.

A character using half-elf stats could choose an alternate racial trait from various sources, and then still get Elvish Magic (along with racial access) via this feat. (In that case, the mechanical benefit is the ability to choose an additional half-elf racial trait.)

In my own home campaign, since I allow half-elves without the feat, I also plan to also give a slight status bonus and the option of using an Elven lineage names (i.e., be an elfmarked noble) with this feat. Elfmarked without the feat are commoners, with no special ties to Dornig.
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Wolfgang

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:35 pm Post subject:

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This is where house rules are trouble. Here's my best take on it.

The home campaign has no such thing as a half-elf, and no elves as players. The only option is to take the elf-marked feat, and become a human using half-elf stats. This is primarily important from a setting logic point of view: if there are a lot of half-elves around, then you must have an elven parent nearby, and that is emphatically not the case.

I simply play it that the feat gives you the full half-elf suit of stuff. You can't roll a half-elf or an elfmarked PC. You roll a human, declare her elf-marked, can use elvish magic, and off you go. There's no half-elves to compete with.

The feat writeup does this, but perhaps poorly. I like Xellos' suggestion of this as "you are more elvish and have a title", and I wish I had thought of the "use the feat to choose an alternate racial trait" approach.

My design goal is basically to keep the elves out of Midgard for as long as possible, though I know in the long run that's impossible. Separate discussion.

Does that help at all? I think it's a case of design intent and rules application not aligning well, and it's something I'll look to fix in errata or a future printing as time permits.

Now I REALLY REALLY REALLY need to get back to prepping KQ23.
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einherjar

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject:

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Thanks Carlos and thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule Wolfgang.

I think this basically covers what I need for my Midgard Tales adventure:

Wolfgang wrote:

I simply play it that the feat gives you the full half-elf suit of stuff. You can't roll a half-elf or an elfmarked PC. You roll a human, declare her elf-marked, can use elvish magic, and off you go. There's no half-elves to compete with.

Now off to work out just which of the nine human types listed under humans the Krakovans would be... I'm thinking they're closest to Dornigfolk...mixed with Roshgazzi and Northlanders. Maybe some Septime and Magdar too... Wink

tpetzie

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject:

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For what it's worth (probably not much, haha), here's my take on it. It's totally my own houserule stuff and different than Wolfgang's take, but perhaps in the same "spirit".

I really like the 'feeling' and flavor of superior, older, wiser, Tolkien-like elves, departed from the world, but having left remnants of their magic and civilization behind. I think the only true elf in Midgard is the Imperatrix of Dorning. However, the CS does provide for "degenerate" elves (the Windrunner Elves and the River Elves) that I like to think of like Tolkien's Avari. They have fallen somewhat from the grace and might of their forebearers, but they are still distinctly 'elven'. Perhaps similar to the wood elves of Mirkwood (e.g. Legolas), which I think are descended from the Avari. So for my own campaign I've stuck with including elves and half-elves according to the pathfinder rules, except that if you play an elf (or half elf), you have to play it like you are Windrunner stock or River Elf stock. You cannot play a "full" elf (think Elrond or Galadriel) because those have all left the world, taking with them their access to true elven lore and superior elven magic and the secrets of their fey roads. This works for us, since according to the rules at least, the PC races of elf, half-elf, and human are balanced, and it seems the wiser ancient "true" elves would be superior to humans, not their equal in game terms.

Which leaves the conundrum of the elf-marked feat. I haven't quite determined what all half-elven traits I'm going to give a player if they choose to take the elf-marked feat. Probably not all of them since this seems unbalanced given that I'm including elves and half-elves as PC races, but definitely some of them. I need to look at what similar feats provide in the rules, and assign the elf-marked feat some balanced "bonus" elven stuff.

I'm curious to find out what others are doing in this vein...

Last edited by tpetzie on Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

tpetzie

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject:

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I would add to this that at least in my take, elves are very rare, and half-elves are exceedingly rare. As in, most people have never seen an elf, much less a half-elf unless they live near the Arbonesse or the Rothenian Plains. Half-elves would be confused with elves by most people, and more than likely shunned by, and outcasts of, their elven communities. Elf-marked humans would be considerably more common. All this is of course my own homebrew interpretation.

Quiche Lisp

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:27 am Post subject:

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Well, my take on that is simple.

There are no half-elves in Midgard.

There are some elfmarked humans.

These elfmarked humans are functionally identical to the half-elf race in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, plus they can use Elvish magic.

In that case, the "half-elf race" is simply a rules term ; it's not a campaign setting term (i.e no one in Midgard uses the terms "half-elf" or "half-elf race" or "elfmarked race". There are no such things).

In that way, I have no need in my game for the elfmarked feat.

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