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| that1mofo |
 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject: 1/2 orc under powered |
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This topic came up in some other DnD related forum I was browsing and I immediately thought... are you kidding me? +2 on your strength roll? That is so massive!
Yeah, sure you can probably rule out ever multi classing in wizard or bard but I've seen 1/2 or barbarians just demolish with that double axe. The devastation of that particular build was just nauseating.
Thoughts? Feelings? Comments? Personal Experiences? |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Compare the half-orc to the other core races, and that's where the "1/2 orcs are underpowered" camp is coming from.
Half-orcs get:
- +2 to Str
- -2 to Int and Cha (the only base class with two minuses)
- Darkvision
- orc blood
And that's it. That's the extent of their abilities -- +2 to Str and darkvision. And for those benefits they have to suffer as the only race with two negative stat modifiers.
Just for comparison, lets look at some other base races:
Elves get:
- +2 to Dex
- -2 Con (painful)
- immunity to magical sleep
- +2 on saves vs enchantments
- low-light vision
- four bonus feats
- +2 on Listen, Search, and Spot
Dwarves get:
- +2 Con
- -2 Cha
- 20 ft. speed, but never reduced by armor or encumbrance
- darkvision
- Stonecunning
- Weapon familiarity
- Stability
- +2 on saves vs poison
- +2 on saves vs spells and spell-like effects
- +1 on attacks vs orcs and goblinoids
- +4 dodge bonus vs giants
- +2 on appraise check for stone and metal items
- +2 on craft checks for stone and metal
Humans get:
- A bonus feat of their choice
- An extra skill point (4 at first level)
- Favored class of their choice (important for some character concepts)
Half-orcs do suck, horribly, when compared to the other core races. You're pigeonholed to playing either a barbarian or a fighter; you can do either of those two roles reasonably well, but you're handicapped for things such as rogue, cleric and ranger, and you're outright gimped if you want to play a wizard, sorcerer or bard.
Every other core race gets some sort of skill bonus, whether it's a +2 like the elf or bonus ranks like the human. Every other non-human has flavor-based abilities such as stonecunning, weapon proficiencies, the halfling's save bonus vs fear, and so on. Half-orcs get... orc blood. Um, yay?
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| marcr |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Keep in mind that Half-Orcs in the Pathfinder RPG are much better, in my opinion. They no longer get any negatives to stats. Like the Half-Elf, they get a +2 to any one stat.
I am actually playing a very intellegent Half-Orc Wizard and he is a LOT of fun!
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Sure, but the question didn't seem to be about Pathfinder. 
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| marcr |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Good point, although the original poster really didn't specify 
I just wanted to point out that Pathfinder more or less addressed the problem being singled out.
Just singing the Pathfinder RPG praises, I guess 
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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I once played an Orcish monk for poops and giggles. Sure I was rolling with my legendary yellow d20 which landed very heavy, very often but his fists were crushing. CRUSHING!!
Anytime there was a battle where the party was out numbered significantly in combat, be it goblin's, skeletons... what have you. HE was responsible for a majority of the body count.
Not to be disrespectful towards your personal opinions, but I cannot accept that a 1/2 orc is horrible. +2 on your strength score is a very big thing!
And Idk what the deuce is up with chapter 2 of pathfinder core rule book. Next thing you'll see is a half elf with 20 strength or 20 constitution, that is just flat out, poorly designed. |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| that1mofo wrote: |
| +2 on your strength score is a very big thing! |
No, it's not. At least not when it "costs" a -2 to two other stats and prevents the race from having any other abilities.
Frankly, I'd be glad to get into a discussion as to why a +2 Con is more valuable than a +2 Str. I think I could even make a reasonable argument that +2 Dex is better in almost all cases than a +2 Str.
The half-orc doesn't have any racial features. No skill bonuses, no save bonuses, no bonuses to attacks and/or AC when attacking certain creature types. Nothin' but orc-blooded. That's why they're weak like a ninja.
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Zherog wrote: |
| that1mofo wrote: |
| +2 on your strength score is a very big thing! |
No, it's not. At least not when it "costs" a -2 to two other stats and prevents the race from having any other abilities.
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Yeah, but we're talking intelligence and charisma. As a guy who prefers to play more martial classes, I'm not even going to blink at low scores in Int and Cha. I'm probably going to have fun with it. Especially if I've got a 18+ strength score!
| Zherog wrote: |
Frankly, I'd be glad to get into a discussion as to why a +2 Con is more valuable than a +2 Str. I think I could even make a reasonable argument that +2 Dex is better in almost all cases than a +2 Str.
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Be my guest! 
| Zherog wrote: |
The half-orc doesn't have any racial features. No skill bonuses, no save bonuses, no bonuses to attacks and/or AC when attacking certain creature types. Nothin' but orc-blooded. That's why they're weak like a ninja. |
Ok, I'll argue that the orc is definitely not weak... well, I have. I don't know if I can offer any more arguments in that particular direction. But I stand by those arguments and you are going to have to come up with some better stuff to persuade me otherwise.
Now if you wanted to argue that 1/2 orcs had less thought put into them during design... I don't think I could argue that, I would probably agree with that. |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| that1mofo wrote: |
| Ok, I'll argue that the orc is definitely not weak... well, I have. I don't know if I can offer any more arguments in that particular direction. But I stand by those arguments and you are going to have to come up with some better stuff to persuade me otherwise. |
Your "argument" up to this point is (effectively) to take what I said and reply with, "nyuh uh."
You asked why people consider the half-orc weak; I explained to you that it's a combination of two negative stat modifiers and no other racial features. Your rebuttal was that you once played one and had fun.
Great, I'm glad you had fun. That's the purpose of playing any game, after all. But the fact that you had fun doesn't negate that the half-orc is a weaker race mechanically than every other race in the PHB.
*
As for both Con and Dex being more important stats to get a bonus...
Con is a better stat to gain a bonus in because every character concept benefits from more hit points and a better Fortitude saving throw. Casters also benefit from an improved Concentration score, allowing them to do important tasks such as casting defensively.
Dex is even better, since it affects more things. A higher Dex means better initiative, better AC, better Reflex save, better ranged attacks, better melee attacks if you take Weapon Finesse, and a ton of useful skills such as Hide and Move Silently (not to mention "specialized" skills such as Balance and Tumble.
Every character - from barbarian through wizard - benefits from those. Every character can make use of more hit points; every character can make use of a higher init and Reflex save. When it comes to Str, though, you get improved melee attacks and improved damage. (and in certain fringe cases on the math, you can actually end up getting +2 damage for the increase in Str, which is definitely a nice boon.) There's also some skills - Climb, Jump, and Swim - that are useful to have increased. Lastly, improved Str increases a character's carrying capacity - though in my personal experience that becomes moot after about level 7 or so once extradimensional bags such as a handy haversack come into play.
*
Yes, a barbarian benefits from a +2 to Strength and doesn't particularly give a flying dire rat's ass about the penalties to Int and Cha (though reduced skill points sucks). A melee fighter, as well, doesn't feel the effects of the penalties while enjoying the Strength boost.
Or... you could build your barbarian with a dwarf instead. You get a better Con score and keep your base Int, meaning you have access to more skills. You rage lasts longer, you have more hit points both before and after rage, you keep darkvision, and you gain a bunch of other useful stuff.
Do half-orcs make good "Hulk angry, Hulk smash! Argh!" style barbarians? Yeah. But at least one other race (dwarf) makes the concept at least as well and gives you more stuff on top. And, really, "Hulk angry, Hulk smash!" is about the only concept you can make with the half-orc.
(and as an aside question... numerous times you've said "orc" rather than "half-orc." We are talking about the race in the PHB, right? Or are we talking about two different things?)
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, we are talking about the half-orc out of the PHB 3.5 alright. My apologies for not remaining specific, it was all the conscious effort I could summon not to spell it "ORK", been playing too much in games workshop's realm. Sorry again!
I can't argue against the racial abilities like stone cunning, the AC bonus against Giants, resistance vs. Sleep spells.
Yeah, you totally win that. The orks (...<~dammit! See what I mean!) got gully dwarfed in that area.
But while the dwarfish Constitution bonus keeps the stubby SoB in the fight longer, the 1/2 orcs Strength bonus ends fights faster. And in all fairness, just as you used the feat 'weapon finesse' to argue your point of [DEX > STR] I can use the feat 'toughness' to argue my point of [STR > CON]. Speaking of which... on to our [DEX > STR] debate.
Yes. A high dexterity bonus improves ALL ranged attacks. But there are plenty of tools at a players disposal to insure his strength bonus also makes an appearance during his ranged damage roll. Weapons such as a throwing hammer or composite long bow make a strength score count even before a character gets to draw his blade to melee where it counts for attack AND damage!
...so I hope that expands on my Nuh~unh! argument. That was particularly vague of me previously.
And lastly, just to clarify. I didn't really start the thread (or the debate) to try to antagonize you where I could bash people and take the jam out of their donuts. I started it so that I could talk about DnD with some people. So thanks for participating! |
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| m8adam |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I'll chime in here and say that while I agree that the 1/2 orc is depressingly underpowered mechanically, they can still be a ton of fun to play and even more fun to try and figure out how to optimize.
And I second the 1/2 orc monk comment. Using a points buy system you can make a killer monk with that +2 str bonus. |
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| So how would you all re-write it? |
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| m8adam |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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The obvious choice is to limit the -2's to a single stat. Although CHA and INT both make sense. Even at that point they're still a little underpowered compared to anything but humans and half-elves.
Short of that, I'd probably go with adding some special abilities/qualities in line with the orc/half-orc nomadic culture. Maybe some sort of heat/cold resistance, make them extra hardy or tough (bonus HP, bonus to reflex save, something like that), give them a knowledge(nature) bonus, allow them to track using survival. Things like that.
Any other ideas? |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| that1mofo wrote: |
| Yep, we are talking about the half-orc out of the PHB 3.5 alright. My apologies for not remaining specific, it was all the conscious effort I could summon not to spell it "ORK", been playing too much in games workshop's realm. Sorry again! |
Spiffy - just wanted to be sure.
| Quote: |
I can't argue against the racial abilities like stone cunning, the AC bonus against Giants, resistance vs. Sleep spells.
Yeah, you totally win that. The orks (...<~dammit! See what I mean!) got gully dwarfed in that area. |
And that's really the meat of the argument. Again, I'm not saying you can't have fun playing a half-orc; I'm saying the half-orc is a less-mechanically powerful race than the others in the PHB.
| Quote: |
| But while the dwarfish Constitution bonus keeps the stubby SoB in the fight longer, the 1/2 orcs Strength bonus ends fights faster. And in all fairness, just as you used the feat 'weapon finesse' to argue your point of [DEX > STR] I can use the feat 'toughness' to argue my point of [STR > CON]. Speaking of which... on to our [DEX > STR] debate. |
Except Toughness ceases to give the same benefit as a +2 Con after 3 levels.
There's no arguing that the +2 Str increases your chance to hit slightly and has a slight impact on damage as well. The overall affects of it would depend on the foe you're fighting, of course, but generally speaking - yeah, more Strength = more hits and more damage when you do hit.
But again, that's all the Strength bonus buys you. (well, OK. That's hyperbole. You also get a +1 to Climb, Jump, and Swim as well as a slightly increased carrying capacity.)
My point, though, wasn't that a +2 Strength isn't good for a melee combatant like a half-orc or fighter. Rather, my argument is that a bonus to Con or Dex is better for more characters, because it affects things that are more generally needed like hit points and Fort save, or Init, Reflex save, and a larger list of skills.
| Quote: |
| Yes. A high dexterity bonus improves ALL ranged attacks. But there are plenty of tools at a players disposal to insure his strength bonus also makes an appearance during his ranged damage roll. Weapons such as a throwing hammer or composite long bow make a strength score count even before a character gets to draw his blade to melee where it counts for attack AND damage! |
Sure, absolutely a character with a high Strength score should choose feats and equipment that most benefit from that advantage. But a low Strength character has options available, too, such as a heavy crossbow or a ranged touch spell.
| Quote: |
| ...so I hope that expands on my Nuh~unh! argument. That was particularly vague of me previously. |
Indeed, it was a solid expansion.
| Quote: |
| And lastly, just to clarify. I didn't really start the thread (or the debate) to try to antagonize you where I could bash people and take the jam out of their donuts. I started it so that I could talk about DnD with some people. So thanks for participating! |
No antagonization here. I enjoy a fun argument.
| m8adam wrote: |
| I'll chime in here and say that while I agree that the 1/2 orc is depressingly underpowered mechanically, they can still be a ton of fun to play and even more fun to try and figure out how to optimize. |
Absolutely. I'm not really talking about "fluff" -- just the actual crunchy bits of the race.
| Quote: |
| And I second the 1/2 orc monk comment. Using a points buy system you can make a killer monk with that +2 str bonus. |
That depends on the point buy style (WotC vs Paizo, for example) and the number of points. While almost every monk cares little for Charisma (allowing the point buyer to leave it at a base of 8, since they don't care if it drops down to 6), the monk does care, at least a little, about Intelligence because he needs the skill points to enable him to take advantage of one of his biggest assets - battlefield maneuverability. So while Charisma can be completely dumped, Int needs to be looked at at least a little bit, which could be painful if you're only doing a 25 point buy.
| that1mofo wrote: |
| So how would you all re-write it? |
I once did a big rewrite; I have it somewhere, but I never actually used it. In my current games the only thing I change is that I allow the player to choose either an Int or Cha penalty, rather than sticking the character with both. that means most of the time half-orcs have a Cha penalty, though I did see an effective paladin built once by putting the penalty in Int.
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Zherog wrote: |
I once did a big rewrite; I have it somewhere, but I never actually used it. In my current games the only thing I change is that I allow the player to choose either an Int or Cha penalty, rather than sticking the character with both. that means most of the time half-orcs have a Cha penalty, though I did see an effective paladin built once by putting the penalty in Int. |
Well if you could find it I'd love to have a look. |
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