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bullonir

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:52 am Post subject: Selling older OD projects question

Patron

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188

Hi all,
A couple of question about selling hardcopies of older projects (which Wolfgang graciously responded to) on the Paizo boards
https://secure.paizo.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Store.woa/wa/Forums#newPost

Here is my reply because I wanted patron info on this (thanks!):

I think selling PDFs is rather iffy as far as the ''ethics'' of selling Open Design goes...

BUT, I was wondering... Would Wolfgang and patrons (and I am a patron for most projects) object to someone selling a print copy of a PDF? (Mostly at cost.)

And no, I am not looking to get into the print-on-demand business!!!!
Just trying to see if I could get a paper copy of the first OD project in a manner which would be satisfactory to all the older patrons and Wolfgang.

I might go mention this thread on The Free City... Hum.

Patrick

avidreader514

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:55 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 141
Location: montreal

If you were selling one of the official "Lulu" versions that were available for a limited time, then that would be okay. There are no other copies being made.

If you're printing out your own PDF and selling the copies, then that crosses the line - especially regarding Steam & Brass, which the 50-odd patrons have been good enough to keep off the pirate boards (at least, I hope that's still true!).

If you want you friend to read S&B, loan it to him/her, but don't sell it.

bullonir

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:11 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188

Thanks Avidreader!

This is pretty funny! (To me.)
Cos I don't own a copy. Sad

I'm just looking for a ''crappy'' B/W, printed at my copy store kind of deal.

And that's why I asked here. Not a ''Lulu original'', nothing collectible-like. Nothing of ''real'' value. And since that's relative, I understand where you're coming from.

I'm just looking for the adventure for its intrinsic value: To run it!
(Or if there's anybody on Montreal's South Shore who wants to DM it for me, just PM me! One can dream!)

So again, S&B seems to elude me. Smile

Thanks for your input! These are exactly the types of comments I was looking for. I am not looking to break the OD ethics in any way.

Patrick

deinol

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 380

I would think that if someone wanted to print off a copy of a PDF to give to a friend, that's totally OK. Selling it for profit seems like it is crossing the line.

I certainly know I wish I had more copies of Wrath of the River King to give to friends as an example of a good low-level 4E adventure with plenty of role-playing opportunities.
_________________
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Sigfried

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: The honorable thing to do

Patron

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 94

I think the most honorable thing to do is this...

If you can get a copy from someone for an out of print product,
Make a donation to the publisher through paypal or the like.

I'd say how much is your call, but I know Steam and Brass suggests $10 for such an occasion.

That seems very reasonable to me.

bullonir

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:48 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188

After reading all of this... After much soul-searching...

Here's what I propose to anyone interested in helping a brother out.

If anybody would like to make me a hard copy of S&B and mail it to me, I would gladly pay (obviously) the costs involved and donate 15$ to OD.

If anybody can help out.
And please, I am not trying to offend anyone. The product is OOP.

Thanks to all!
Patrick

Blackwarder

Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:08 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 103
Location: Israel

bullonir wrote:

I say the same only for wrath of the river king, it killed me that I can't get my hands on a copy of early OD products just because having bought slot of OD products over the past two months and read them I know that they are the best RPG products around.

Warder

beasterbrook

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:52 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 52

I don't know why this topic seems to raise its head again and again.. I think its because people know there are PDF files of the OOP stuff and so they should be able to get their hand on it if they want it.. maybe Wolfgang should have a sticky about it.. but I’m sure we can all read past posts.. (we some of us anyway..)

Let me try and be gentle here.. (remember this is me trying to be gentle)..

From my point of view what you are basically asking is ILLIGAL!

Look.. You yourself say that you have been a patron for several projects.. Why don’t you make copies of them available for anyone who asks? Advertise the fact that you will print off as many copies as anyone wants for $15? It is just the cost of printing it right? Its not like you are making any money out of it, they are OOP and you are proving a service for people who would like to run the adventures (and they are all nice people like you? Are you providing this service?? Then why are you asking someone else to do this?

If you did this I would expect Wolfgang to ban you from the boards in a fraction of a second and rightly so.. when you buy a book, a pdf, a movie its doesn’t give you the right to make copies and give them to other people! It doesn’t stop people from doing it, but at least if you want to ask a question like this please post it on some torrent site and not on the site of the writer..

There are 2 basic ways to get a copy of all the OOP Open Design Projects (and in fact anything that is OOP) we all know what they are, we have gone over it several times, its not like we don't know..

Illegal- download it from the net, get a photocopy etc
or
Legal- buy one when it comes up for sale.. maybe win one in a KQ contest? etc

Look, I’m also one of those people that would like a (legal) copy of S&B, I wasn’t a Patron on this project or the couple after it (as with almost every other person on this planet).. but I have managed to track down print copies of every single project except for S&B.. copies do came up for sale every so often, almost everything get sold or traded eventually, you just have to be lucky enough, fast enough and have the willingness and means to spend what it takes to get a copy. I’m sure there are several others that would be interested in a copy of S&B as well, but, Wolfgang and the Patrons of that particular project have spoken and we must respect their decision. When Wolfgang started the patron project it was “exclusive” for S&B and then “semi-exclusive” for several projects after that, and now its open.. that’s just the way it was and is, no use bitching about how unfair it is as we weren't one of those Patron for whatever reason… just get on with your life.. Its best to think of this book as OOP with no chance of it getting reprinted… hopefully you will have the chance to pick up a copy in the future, hay, its not going to be as easy as picking up say a TSR module, but only you can choose which of the 2 paths above you want to go down.. I’ve tracked down many a rare rpg book in my day, sometimes its worth it sometimes its not, but at the end of the day its only one adventure I’m not going to loose sleep about not playing/reading it. There are lots and lots of other rare rpg items out there that I would love to get, and I have cosen my path.. I realise that there is a high possability that I may not get everything I'm after.. but.. that just the way life goes really, you don't always get what you want.... its really the search and the hunt is what makes it enjoyable for me;)

Brette:)

Blackwarder

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:55 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 103
Location: Israel

Mate, I'm willing to buy Wrath of the River King and Halls of the Mountain Kings from patrons who are willing to sell them.

I'll probably never be lucky enough to find a used copy in the shops around here because there is a very good chance that no one in Israel have them.

And I have the right to whine and bitch about missing such great stuff like anyone else Razz

,I don't have the right to steal it though.

Warder

beasterbrook

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:46 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 52

Oh don't worry I whine and bitch as well, I do it every time I loose an ebay auction or miss out on a deal etc etc I'm not saying you can't whine and bitch, just do it in private, especially if you can't change what you are whining and bitching about;)

I'm in Australia and I'm in the same boat, I have almost no chance at finding any RPG product I'm after in the entire county, let alone Open Design stuff.. having said that I have bought all the Parton projects (except for S&B.. whine bitch;).. my last buy was Empire of the Ghouls (hardcover) it took me a year to track down a copy, and even then I only got it as I got lucky..

Brette:)

(there is a 4th and a 3.5 ed of Wrath btw.. what interest you most..)

bullonir

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:04 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 188

@Beasterbrook...

I'm at work and haven't read your whole post. Sorry. I'll come back later.

BUT, if it was addressed at me specifically, I did offer to send money Wolfgang's way. And asking permission from a patron. I am not looking for any illegal copies anywhere on the net.

Thanks.

Patrick

richgreen01

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:20 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 784
Location: London, UK

beasterbrook wrote:

(there is a 4th and a 3.5 ed of Wrath btw.. what interest you most..)

That's news to me - never heard of a 3.5 version on Wrath of the River King.

There ARE two versions of Halls though.

Cheers

Richard

Blackwarder

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:09 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 103
Location: Israel

@Bretteת I'm looking for the 4e version, I never really liked 3rd and 3.5.

On a side note, just to check, there is no 4e version of Tales of the Margrave right?

beasterbrook wrote:

Yeah, but what to use of bitching and whining to people who don't know what you're bitching and whining about? Very Happy

Warder

beasterbrook

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 52

bullonir wrote:

Look I can understand you justifying the matter to yourself that way, I can understand your frustration that you "can't" get a copy of a particular item, believe me I can.. but that does not it any less wrong in my eyes.. let me put it this way.. Lets say I'm after a movie and its not being made anymore.. If I posted a request on say Paramounts web site offering to pay a nominal amount of money to Paramount if someone could burn me a copy of a move they made... What do you think would happen?

The fact that you are offering some sort of monetary compensation is Immaterial.. If Wolfgang wanted (or could get) money for S&B you know what he would do? Thats right.. he would be selling it! If you want to ask someone for a copy that someone I believe that someone should and would be Wolfgang, he actually wrote it, and, on several occasions the answer is NO.. this is were it should end.. At the moment you are offering to buy a copy from someone, not an origional product but a print out of a PDF file, its that simple.. In my eyes, with these "closed" projects, each Patron is a small holder of that items copyright, Wolfgang and the other Patrons are unable to do anything unless they get the agreement of everyone and Wolfgang, and, with S&B that is what has happened.. some people don't want the product distributed wider and thats that (its hard enough getting a group of 5 people to agree on something let alone 50 odd, try being in an adventure party, everyone wants to do what they think is right...) If you want to do what you are asking, you need ALL the Patrons agreement and Wolfgangs.. and at the moment I'm afraid that is just not going to happen... Wolfgang has said that this is the original agreement that was agreed to when the Patronage started and he is sticking to it (and rightly so I might say!) In later projects he modified it and then later he has modified it again to have open projects, some people like it and some people don't I'm sure, but its Wolfgangs choice of what he does and how he offers terms on projects.. we can either go along for the ride or not, thats our choice..

Brette:)

Last edited by beasterbrook on Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:22 pm; edited 3 times in total

beasterbrook

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:53 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 52

richgreen01 wrote:

beasterbrook wrote:

(there is a 4th and a 3.5 ed of Wrath btw.. what interest you most..)

That's news to me - never heard of a 3.5 version on Wrath of the River King.

There ARE two versions of Halls though.

Cheers

Richard

Slap.. yes you are right Wrath has only one version, hall has 2.. (well it has 4 versions actually, hard and soft cover and 3.5 and 4th Very Happy

)

Brette:)

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