|
| Courts of the Shadow Fey for 3E/PF |
« View previous topic :: View next topic » |
| Author |
Message
|
| thorr-kan |
 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Patron
Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 187
|
| richgreen01 wrote: |
| Wrath was a patron-only book so I'm not sure that one will be done, or should be. |
Ayup, and it's mine...precious...
But it would be nice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| terraleon |
| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: upstate NY
|
| thorr-kan wrote: |
| All we need now is Wrath of the River King... |
We'll see what's possible. 
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Patron
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 588
|
| terraleon wrote: |
| thorr-kan wrote: |
| All we need now is Wrath of the River King... |
We'll see what's possible. |
I've already got Courts on pre-order; I'd be pleased to add Wrath as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| terraleon |
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: upstate NY
|
Soon, my pretties. Soon.
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| P_Tigras |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Posts: 4
|
| terraleon wrote: |
Soon, my pretties. Soon.
-Ben. |
I hope the existing issues in the 4e version have been fixed in the 3e/PF version. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4987
Location: The Mines
|
A number of things have been fixed, but mostly it is a matter of conversion rather than redesign.
So, depending on what issues you found, that issue might or might not be addressed in the Pathfinder version. Feedback on the 4E version was largely positive, but a few things did get tweaked.
Mostly, it's a lot longer, due to the larger PF stat blocks.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| terraleon |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: upstate NY
|
| P_Tigras wrote: |
| I hope the existing issues in the 4e version have been fixed in the 3e/PF version. |
What issues do you refer to?
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| einherjar |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Patron
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 978
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
|
I think P_Tigras is referring to questions he posed here:
LINK
a while back. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| terraleon |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: upstate NY
|
| einherjar wrote: |
I think P_Tigras is referring to questions he posed
a while back. |
Ah, that was in my dark window. Ok. I'm not certain if those are resolved. I'll have to find out.
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4987
Location: The Mines
|
Ah, those! Yes, some nice questions there.
I believe those are all resolved to my satisfaction in the PF version, and some of the answers to those additional questions strengthen the main conflict nicely. YMMV, of course.
FWIW, it's going to the proofreader this week, then a press check, then print, bind, and ship.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| einherjar |
| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Patron
Joined: 13 Jun 2011
Posts: 978
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
|
| I am very happy to hear it is almost ready!!! Can't wait to run this for my nieces... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| P_Tigras |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: Fixing Existing Errors/Issues |
|
|
Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Posts: 4
|
| Wolfgang wrote: |
Ah, those! Yes, some nice questions there.
I believe those are all resolved to my satisfaction in the PF version, and some of the answers to those additional questions strengthen the main conflict nicely. YMMV, of course.
FWIW, it's going to the proofreader this week, then a press check, then print, bind, and ship. |
Thank you. Should I bother to post the rest of my errors/issues list with the 4e version? Or is it too late to have them taken into consideration for fixing with the pathfinder version? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4987
Location: The Mines
|
Post them. We're in the proofing stage, though, so that limits things to small-size fixes.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| P_Tigras |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: More Issues/Questions/Suggestions |
|
|
Joined: 10 Nov 2012
Posts: 4
|
Ok, here are some more issues/questions/suggestions based on the 4e version that I hope will addressed in the 3e/pf version...
1) A number of characters have powers that are dependent on their status scores (riposte, hands off your betters) while simultaneously lacking status scores. These include Lord Chelessfield, Lord Suvid, the Black Prince, Queen Sarastra & the Moonlit King. Can we have their statuses added?
2) It seems silly to assign minimum statuses for duels with characters who ignore those minimum statuses when accepting duels. (Yngress, Yikrugrak)
2) Status scores are only explicitly given for two of the courtesans (Songemesha & Maraya p. 65). There is a table (3-3 p. 57) with the minimum status scores players need to court all of the courtesans, but it's not clear if they're equivalent to the courtesans' personal status scores. At least in Maraya's case they're not. I'd thus like a little more clarity on this.
I consider the status information useful since I believe some of the courtesans are going to be looking at the players, particularly the more promising ones who gain high status, as tickets to increasing their own statuses, and that the greater the status difference is in favor of the player, the more loyal the courtesan is likely to be to that player even after their favor is gained.
3) According to that same table, a 20 minimum status is needed to woo Maraya if she's male, and a 22 if she's female. However, this contradicts table 3-2 (p. 56) that says an invitation to woo the sapphire courtesan will be issued at a minimum status of 17. Nothing further is said about this "invitation" in the book. It would be nice to know a bit more about this invitation.
4) The book talks about "formal duels as part of orchestrated assassination attempts" (p. 52) and Maraya attempting an "assassination in bed" (p. 52, 66), but as far as I can tell none of the duelists are written as attempting to kill the pc's during their duels. And the scene with Maraya isn't an assassination at all, just an attempt by Maraya to temporarily enchant a player into becoming her latest BDSM sextoy. Except perhaps for their 1-2 week disappearance and the "bloody" state they're found in, the rest of her actions, including the coercive magical enchantment, don't seem that out of the ordinary for the court. She just seems to play a little harder than all the rest.
5) Another "invitation" that is mentioned but never explained in Table 3-2 (p. 56) is an invitation to hunt the Firebird for the queen at a status of 23. The prince does -NOT- want you to hunt it, let alone give it to the queen, and you only need a 19 to hunt with him. At a status of 23 you also don't yet rate an audience with the Queen. So who extends this invitation and what is their motive?
6) In the Conditions in the Labyrinth sidebar (p. 86), it is said that Lord Akyishigal will be seen at the Welcome Feast and the Courtesan's Feast, making it sound as if there are two separate feasts. The rest of the book however only mentions and discusses the Swan Festival which sounds like the Courtesan's Feast.
7) Human parties will start with negative status scores due to the -5 penalty for non-fae. The monolith footmen can only be defeated 5 times for +1 status gains each time, but a 6 status is required to see the lower courts for what they are and gain the ability to interact with the lower status shadow fey like the ravens. Parties that have no fae players and whose average status is about 0 after defeating the monolith footmen 5 times are going to have trouble getting past the rest of that hump, especially since invisible fae may be pranking them for further status deductions. And even after they get beyond status 0 (Table 2-11 p. 41), it's going to be hard to play pranks on, or to succeed with diplomacy or bluff rolls against animals. There just don't seem to be enough ways for characters who start with a -5 status to get to a 6 status, and all the possible penalties just make it even worse. Honestly, unless some new ways for low status characters to gain status are added, I think that -5 non-fae status penalty should be removed, with fae getting a small bonus instead, and the half-breed penalty reduced from -7 to say -2 or -3.
8 ) Does joining the Gray Ladies get you +1 (Table 2-3 p. 29) or +4 (p. 48 ) status?
9) It doesn't make sense for bridge duels to be both illegal -and- open only to those with a status of 20+ (mentioned in separate paragraphs, both on p. 68 ).
10) The status rules for duelling are a bit vague. It's said that the bonuses are non-cumulative (p. 29), and only the highest counts. Is that per-duel? Across all duels total? Or both? Given how easy it is to lose status, I'm hoping that's per duel since duels seem to be the easiest way for players to gain, and regain, status.
11) The +1 basic status bonus for winning a duel mentioned on page 68 in the speed duelling rules seems to contradict Table 2-2 (p. 28 ) where it doesn't get mentioned at all.
11) In the Speed Duelling rules it says that duels fought outside of duelling season -must- be fought outside of the palace (p. 71), but buried in the gossip section there is a true blurb about how the duelling groundskeeper Whitemist can -easily- be bribed to allow duels out of season (p. 40). This tidbit really should be noted in the duelling rules too.
12) A few of the NPC's behave in inexplicably contradictory ways. The two most notable:
12a) There are three seemingly contradictory responses on Lord Suvid's part to being defeated in three different blurbs. (i) "If Lord Suvid ever loses a duel he leaves the Shadow Court in shame and embarrassment for at least 1 month, returning only when his loss is largely forgotten" (p. 71 Suvid's description blurb). (ii) He attempts to get revenge, by first attempting to convince the Black Prince to banish the PC's, and later sending Akyshigal's assassins or the King's moonlight demons after them (p. 71 development blurb). (iii) "He is remarkably magnanimous in defeat; he is seeking, in fact, to win favor with the PC for the future, hoping to turn this deadly combatant into someone he can manipulate" (p 71 treasure blurb). So which is it? Does he flee the palace in shame? Seek revenge by lobbying the powerful to send assassins? Or pretend to be the PC's new good friend in hopes of manipulating him/her?
12b) The prince will challenge the players to a duel if they give the firebird to the queen. If bested by a player in a duel, does he have a "sincere" "change of heart" (p. 78 ) or does he stay their enemy (p. 81)?
13) The Swan Festival invitation illustration (p. 60) states that the performers will be the Lord of Flames and the Lady of Chains. That's not true for the Lady of Chains. She not only doesn't perform, she doesn't attend.
Oh, and btw, a little more concrete info on which elder fey she angered and how she angered him would be useful for adventurers who've successfully wooed her and subsequently invited her to attend as their date and advisor on protocol. I see this as an excellent opportunity to set up some interesting interactions, including a duel with whoever she angered. It's not a huge deal though, I can make something up.
14) What exactly does "winning" a courtesan's "favor" mean beyond physical accessibility? Is it possible for a player to get one to agree to an exclusive arrangement? or possibly even marriage? (I can almost guarantee that one of my players will ask me about this regarding Lishekki.) Or must a player always timeshare her with her other "suitors", as definitely seems to be the case with Maraya (p. 67)?
Conversely, the rules for courtesans say they will terminate the relationship if the player gets involved with one of their "rivals". Does that include all other courtesans? Or only just those they despise? What about courtiers like Lady Sorreminx. Would they consider her a rival worth ending an affair over? I suppose what I'm looking for is a better understanding of how the courtesans relate to each other, their clients/patrons outside of wooing, and the rest of the court.
15) The Queen seemed a bit underpowered to me given both her status as a "goddess" and the potency of the most powerful courtiers around her.
16) According to page 4, the Queen rules the Summer Court and the King the Winter Court. The King however is mad during the Winter and gets locked into the maze. Therefore he doesn't rule very often or for very long. So what does he do during the summer while he's lucid and the Queen is ruling?
17) Why is the Queen ruling the Summer Court in the King's Winter Palace instead of her Summer Palace? Where is the Summer Palace? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| terraleon |
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:31 am Post subject: Re: More Issues/Questions/Suggestions |
|
|
Contributor
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 2013
Location: upstate NY
|
| P_Tigras wrote: |
2) It seems silly to assign minimum statuses for duels with characters who ignore those minimum statuses when accepting duels. (Yngress, Yikrugrak)
|
In this case, it's just the minimum status of the individual they're willing to challenge. If you've got less status than the minimum, then they're willing to knock you about the head and shoulders if you ask for it, just to show you who's better. But they're not going to sully their reputation by considering you someone worth actually initiating a challenge against.
| P_Tigras wrote: |
I consider the status information useful since I believe some of the courtesans are going to be looking at the players, particularly the more promising ones who gain high status, as tickets to increasing their own statuses, and that the greater the status difference is in favor of the player, the more loyal the courtesan is likely to be to that player even after their favor is gained.
|
I believe it's stated in there, but really, no one with any longevity at the Court ever considers the characters to be anything more than novelties, passing fads, or strange curios-- and they are really just toys to entertain. It's just that some fey like to break their toys.
| P_Tigras wrote: |
3) According to that same table, a 20 minimum status is needed to woo Maraya if she's male, and a 22 if she's female. However, this contradicts table 3-2 (p. 56) that says an invitation to woo the sapphire courtesan will be issued at a minimum status of 17. Nothing further is said about this "invitation" in the book. It would be nice to know a bit more about this invitation.
|
Again, just because you've been invited doesn't mean there's a chance you'll win. They're devious. They're manipulative. They take delight in watching some character think they're good enough to woo someone like the Sapphire Courtesan. They take even greater delight in watching that person fail.
Take all the machinations of Mean Girls, Heathers, Machiavelli, Dangerous Liaisons, and Cruel Intentions. Now turn it up to 11 and you've begun to approach the artistry the Shadowfey apply to Court interactions. They've been doing this since before your great-great-greatgrandfather was a babe. Everything has a second or a third motive. Or it doesn't. It's all as natural as breathing to them.
| P_Tigras wrote: |
4) The book talks about "formal duels as part of orchestrated assassination attempts" (p. 52) and Maraya attempting an "assassination in bed" (p. 52, 66), but as far as I can tell none of the duelists are written as attempting to kill the pc's during their duels. And the scene with Maraya isn't an assassination at all, just an attempt by Maraya to temporarily enchant a player into becoming her latest BDSM sextoy. Except perhaps for their 1-2 week disappearance and the "bloody" state they're found in, the rest of her actions, including the coercive magical enchantment, don't seem that out of the ordinary for the court. She just seems to play a little harder than all the rest.
|
With a sandbox environment, you can't be sure how the characters will respond or act, and this is detailed, as I saw it, as another potential tool of interaction. Did you offend some particular courtesan, or steal their paramour? Then they may trade some favor to someone else who then arranges a questionable duel through a companion with another courtier who is looking to make an example out of you, and it's convenient to do it with an assassination disguised as a duel.
....wow. This is a lot of questions. I can't answer them all right now, and I'll let others chime in here, too
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
