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| Aberzanzorax |
 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: I have had civil arguments on more delicate topics. |
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I have had civil arguments on more delicate topics. I do not believe that this needs to devolve. I have found that the more sensitive the topic is, the more likely people are to swing far to one side or the other (completely crass or very respectful). This debate now has inertia...the inertia of assumed respect, but disagreement. I see no reason why it cannot remain that way.
I really like Terraleon's reasons for wanting to Read Steam and Brass. I do as well, for similar reasons that I'll elaborate on.
For me, Open Design is both art and history -but it is history in the making. Is it a matter of "Hooray! I own 100% of the content? No." It is a historical phenomenon, to be sure. (A historical gaming phenomenon, but if I consider myself to have expertise in anything, it would be roleplaying games). I look at this as an archaeologist/historian in a sense. Think not of me as an art collector, but those individuals who xray art to see what lies beneath, and who wonder why the painter reused that canvas instead of another (in the archaeologist sense) or as a person who views each of DaVinci's paintings, takes notes, reads about his life, learns about other painters of the same times and genre and wants to understand it as a cohesive whole. I'm not a "collector", I'm an "art historian".
The actual adventure of Steam and Brass is somewhat immaterial to me in the larger scheme of things. Do I think I'll love it? Yes. Is it because I need one more steampunk adventure? No.
I view this as seeing the evolution of the Open Gaming Project. With your analogy, I look not to learn about the Mona Lisa alone, but about Da Vinci himself (where Da Vinci is not Wolfgang but Open Gaming). How much more would you learn about the man if his seminal works were discovered in a heretofore unknown notebook? They might not even be his best works. They would, however show you where he had come from and put into context the direction he had then headed.
In addition to the Open Gaming Project, I want to learn about Zobek. Do I always use only canon in my games? No, absolutely not. However, the general model of hiding past projects from new patrons essentially prevents an overall growth of Zobek for each individual. This is not just for Steam and Brass, but the philosophy of this as a whole. Wolfgang has stated in the other thread that each work stands on its own. If I cannot buy the works, then they HAVE to stand on their own. They cannot become part of a larger world. I don't always use canon, but I can't use what I can't read. I always do start with canon and modify from there according to my own vision, as informed by the materials I have.
I understand what you are saying about integrity, rarity, etc. (And thank you, by the way, that was very informative). I will remind you that paintings are highly different from manuscripts, particulary manuscripts that are available in digital form (as they were intended from the beginning to be printed from that form-similar to a series of prints). Your literary analogies are far more on the mark (as would be musical art analogies...Mozart, Hayden, etc). (Or at best, a piece of visual art that was designed for reproduction, like prints).
You have clearly thought this through many times, argued it many times, and likely expect that you will need to do so in the future as well (when the next project comes out). I can only imagine that rather than changing your mind, these arguments (particularly the threats of lawsuits and cusswords) have entrenched your position. How could you "save face" by bending at this point, even if you were wrong? But I don't believe that it is fear or shame that has entrenched your position. This seems important enough to you that if you believed yourself to be wrong, you would, without hesitation, change your position.
I do believe that when one is forced to defend a position, that person spends 95% of their thought about how they can prove they are right and (maybe) 5% considering the other side (hence my intro in my earlier post to you that asked you to consider my/our points with an open mind). As a psychologist (my actual profession, gaming history is my hobby) I know this is the human way to be. Entire therapies and modalities are built around this concept. I am not accusing you of anything here (except pointing out this very normal human response that can only be rectified by addressing it).
While your lesson on integrity, rarity, and ownership was helpful in understanding art as well as your position, it was not particularly helpful in convincing me about this medium, or about art in a private collector's position. Remember, this is not on display. It is in the hands of a small number of private collectors.
My concern is that I can't read it or play it. That is my main concern, and the examples you have provided do not allay that concern. Can I come to your house and read your copy? Well, you have invited me, but would you really put me up for the weekend? Honestly? Even if you did, it would be a one time perusal, and there is value in being able to read and reread items, especially when new projects come out. I plan on going through the prior open design materials I have when I get Zobek to see how and if they fit together (as I have done with less historical, but equally interesting gaming items such as the Arcana Evolved/Unearthed series).
Would you advise someone who you think truly appreciates art to look at a given piece only once? Would you advise a student of Da Vinci to look at each piece once and never again after seeing the others? Art is important in context, as I am sure I don't have to explain to you.
As a whole (and this is not directed just to you, but germane to the other poll thread about releasing prior works) instead of a growing phenomenon, what is being created by the current paradigm is a series of "one hit wonders". (AND I MEAN NO OFFENSE TO WOLFGANG-he is in my top three roleplaying authors and I hold him in the highest esteem.) Wolfgang is not a one hit wonder, but his works, if unavailable because they are "limited" lose this context. Zobek itself becomes modularized because, as I stated elsewhere, one of two things must occur: either the material is available and can be built upon or it is unavailable and either is built upon to the exclusion of new patrons or is simply not built upon to include new patrons.
Perhaps I have yet another solution: A viewing room. What if patrons/customers could view prior adventures in an non-reproducable fomat (I believe googlebooks uses something like this) where you can scroll up and down the page to read it, but you cannot print or copy it?
To maintain integrity, watermarks with the patron's name could be used to prevent any sort of sneaky and dubious duplication. (I don't know the ins and outs of hacking, but I'm sure things could be attempted, and would want to safeguard against that).
Of course, an admission fee would be required to buy access to this (I'd prefer it be a one time fee).
I think this might allow others to view the materials (as in a museum) but not to have either the rights to reproduce it or the means. It would be like going over wolfgang's house to play it, and with an open invitation, but without actually muddying up his carpets or drinking his beer.
Essentially, I seek compromise, not ownership, because like Terraleon I want the story and I want to play it. I don't see that as possible the way things are now, just as I can't go to your museum's basement and look at the art you have in storage. You aren't protecting that art's integrity by keeping it in storage, you're simply making it more obscure and unknown.
Edit: (Question about integrity). You mention that integrity goes down (you also use the words cultural value) by reproduction. (I can absolutely believe that.) You are the scholar here in this regard, so I ask you, does putting it in a museum so that it can be appreciated cause integrity to go up?
Would the viewing room be a compromise you'd agree to? Does making art unviewable fit with any of your goals? As you are a museum curator, do you prefer to have art remain in the collections of private individuals, or do you want it on display in your museum?
As a wise man once said, "This belongs in a museum."
Last edited by Aberzanzorax on Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:57 am; edited 5 times in total |
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| m8adam |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Going Backwards |
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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So, when I first discovered Steam and Brass and heard that there were people hoarding this awesome seeming book I got kind of upset and very frustrated. How could they do that? Who would want to make unavailable an amazing adventure like this?
Having read through this whole thread several times now, and particularly Troy's comments, my feelings on the issue have evolved. I almost side with Troy now, to be honest.
My intention in getting a copy of Steam and Brass is to have an amazing steampunk adventure written by an amazing author with amazing innovations that would help inspire me to create adventures of my own.
On the one hand, I agree with a lot of the exclusivity-detractors in that I don't feel that more widely distributing Steam and Brass would "spoil" it. I don't think we'd be ruining art, or diluting it or any of that.
On the other, I can see where Troy is coming from in believing that it might happen. I think he's explained his fears and concerns very well, and I know that I need to respect them, even if I don't share them.
Honestly, it's just a difference of opinion and I don't think the two can be easily reconciled, or that it's worth the energy.
If Troy wants to keep his project to a limited 75 copy (or however many) edition, then that's his right. That's what was agreed on and part of what those patrons paid for. Yes, it upsets me that I can't get a hold of that material; It's extremely frustrating. But if this thread is any indication it seems like there's a large group of people on these forums interested in something like Steam and Brass. So, why not put forth a proposal to do another adventure with a similar theme?
That's what I'm interested in; seeing how an artist/game designer like Wolfgang deals with a steampunk setting. That's why I wanted Steam and Brass. I assumed that since steampunk had already "been done" that the community would want to move on, and that I had missed the boat on any and all steampunk adventure I might find. But that's clearly not the case, and rather than harass wolfgang or the "Fab Four" any longer, my time would better be spent advocating for another project that would allow me similar insights.
...I don't know. I'm basically agreeing with Hedgeknight is all. And trying to support Troy in his right to do what he wants with his patron project... But I'd love him forever if he let me get a copy 
~Adam
p.s.- As to my original question which no one has answered yet, anyone interested in selling me their rights to Steam and Brass? Or inviting me over to check out their copy like Troy? |
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| kenmarable |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Going Backwards |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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| m8adam wrote: |
| p.s.- As to my original question which no one has answered yet, anyone interested in selling me their rights to Steam and Brass? Or inviting me over to check out their copy like Troy? |
Where do you live? There's a copy in East Lansing, MI. (Although I only have a printed out PDF. I think I missed the boat on the print-on-demand version.)
Reading this over, the consensus I'm getting is that next Gen Con I go to, I should really see about running this adventure. |
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| m8adam |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: HA! |
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| Actually... Troy lives just north of me (apparently) in WA. I'm from Portland, OR and he lives just below the Canadian border in WA. only about 8 hours driving? But yeah, I'd love to see the book, so if there's any way to work something out that'd be awesome. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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Part of me is very amused that the first project (which is certainly far from the best of the Open Design projects) is generating so much heat and interest just because it's not readily available.
Exclusivity seems to have created some perception of additional value, as has been argued elsewhere. Is it worth an 8-hour drive... maybe.
Most of the Zobeck elements of interest have been covered in the Zobeck Gazetteer, which will soon be avaialable to the public. The Zobeck setting material in other OD projects so far is fairly limited (Shadowcrag and Gorgon had a little, Empire and Arabian almost none). The majority of the Zobeck setting material to date is in KQ.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I am going to take a cue from Hedgeknight, and this will be my last reply to this topic. EDIT: Or, it will be my last lengthy reply to this thread.
Let me preface this by saying that this has always been an emotionally charged topic for me. Bear that in mind, and forgive me, if that is required.
Also, I am completely speaking for myself here. Ben is going to absolutely cringe when this reply. He's made thoughtful, eloquent, and brilliant arguments to Troy. I fear that he'll see my reply as taking one giant step backwards.
Nevertheless, I really hear Troy calling for people to be genuine and authentic. That's what I'm going to be. Then I am going to walk away.
First of all, speaking to Troy, I don't understand the collector mentality as you explain it. Its not that you have not explained it well (and I appreciate that you did), it is just not a value that I share with you.
You speak of an integrity that the object possesses that transcends the collector- and that is alien to me. I liken it to a funeral. I said to someone once, "I am going to go to the funeral to pay my respects to (the deceased)." The person I was speaking had lost their own son not to long ago, and she corrected me. "You don't attend a funeral for the dead. They don't care. You attend a funeral for the survivors that are left behind." I am not likening Steam & Brass to a person, but there is a slight tangential correlation. Steam & Brass doesn't care. It has no integrity of its own. The only integrity it possesses is that which we assign to it. And that speaks to how we value it. What we think of it. It is entirely about US, not the object.
You speak of preserving its legacy. Maintaining the integrity of the object for history. I can appreciate that sentiment in some objects, but not in Steam & Brass. To place such significance upon this work seem to be either and excuse or an eccentricity. A compulsion gone too far. Let me assure you, I neither think you are lying or are mad. I can not read minds, nor am I qualified to pass judgment on the values of others. BUT! I simply don't share this particular value with you in regards to Steam & Brass , to the degree that your perspective seems just that alien to me. It is so strange that my first instinct is think it is something other than what you say it is. However, I am overriding that first impression and taking you at your word.
Now you have opened yourself up and made yourself vulnerable, Troy. I will do likewise. I ask that we respect that we do not think alike.
| Tory wrote: |
| Without the experience how can you value the content for anything more than a sourcebook? |
I patently do not speak for the others, especially poor Ben.
But I do want it just as a Sourcebook, among other reasons that we'll get to with your other questions. I accept that I can not share your experience. That's a shame. However your experience can not be shared anyway and it will die along with you. The content of the book however, can endure.
Understand that it was not my fault that I couldn't share the experience with you. You're not obligated to me because of that fact, but it deserves mentioning.
| Troy wrote: |
| At this point I have to ask why does everyone want Steam and Brass so badly? Is it because it is something you can't have? |
Absolutely! But the problem you face with having at least one person admitting to you that this is true, is how will you then condemn that? How will you say that this is wrong? Lordy Troy, you might as well admonish me for being human.
I laugh at the idea of being indicted for wanting something that I can not have. That is so integral to the human condition that I might as well be jailed for having a nose.
Seriously. It’s a reasonable question, but you're implying a negative judgment that you can no more substantiate than I can condemn your instincts as a collector. You pose the question, but you're not qualified to condemn the answer.
| Quote: |
| Do you guys want it because it represents a hole in your collection? If you had it could you then state with pride "I have all of the open design adventures!" ? I personally have been here from the beginning and I haven't caught them all. |
Yes.
Yes.
And how does that change the fact that I answered yes to the previous two questions?
Again, you're posing the questions as if this should be some triumphant courtroom moment, where you shout "AHA! Ladies and Gentlemen, the rascal stands exposed!"
Respectfully Troy, to your value system those might be excellent reasons why you should maintain your stance. I don't relate to the value you have chosen to place upon Steam & Brass , so I don't feel any shame in saying yes.
I realize that I am probably doing anything but persuading you to change your mind. That's because I'm not trying to get you to change your mind. I'm just being authentic and truthful with you.
And trust me, if you feel like you've been blasted? Aint nobody gonna thank me for this.
| Troy wrote: |
| Are you guys simply pissed off at three people having the "power". That term has come up numerous times. What power do I have? The power to say no you cannot republish or own a copy of this? |
Yes. Oh my god, yes.
The power that I have granted you, through wanting what you have, irritates me mightily. I brought it up numerous times. I'm not ducking responsibility for having raised the point.
Because I have trouble understanding your value system, my instincts say this is about power. You have control. We need your blessing, or we need to cope without ever having the object.
Now.. Just because my instincts say that this is about power, doesn't mean that I am correct. That's why I keep returning to this business about your value system, particularly in association with this specific object. I'm not saying this to change your mind. I'm saying this so that you can try to understand me, just as I have tried (and failed) to understand you.
Nevertheless, when I read your posts, my mind flashes to a film. Superman Returns. It wasn't a particularly great movie, but it had one good moment. Lex Luthor is likening himself to Prometheus, and he stops and looks at his cohorts and rationalizes his position. "...while the Gods fly around with little red capes and refuse to share their power."
That's not a flattering comparison for me to make, especially for myself. Lex Luthor's problem is that he allows his obsession to control him. He gives Superman the real power, to his own destruction as a person.
And.. that is a rationalization, on Lex's part. The trick is also recognizing that it is an emotion, and not despising it just because it is an emotion. Instead we have to embrace those not so nice parts of ourselves and then let them go.
The only way to break the power over me, that I have given to Troy Luginbill, is to no longer want Steam & Brass.
Buddhists teach of not having "attachment". That is a discipline I must practice.
I think, in the long run, I will be a happier person for not having Steam & Brass. My only regret in writing this post is that it might damage someone else's opportunity to get you to reconsider. My heartfelt apologies to them.
Thank you for time and candor Troy. You didn't have to come here and justify or explain yourself to us at all. I recognize that. If this post frustrates you, I hope that you'll understand that I placed authenticity above all else.
EDIT: Of course, I would like to see Open Design never again allow exclusivity to come at such a degree as exists in S&B. If that means an end of what Troy considers to be Patronage, then so be it.
Last edited by Watcher on Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1625
Location: Your TARDIS
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| Part of me is very amused that the first project (which is certainly far from the best of the Open Design projects) is generating so much heat and interest just because it's not readily available. |
How does that part of you, that is not very amused, feel?
With all due affection, Wolfgang, sometimes you don't sound so amused about this particular topic.
| Quoted From The LiveJournal wrote: |
| There's a poll up today in the Open Design forums about whether the limited edition format is working for people. Some gamers seem to think that limited editions are somehow wrong or unfair or something (ask them, not me, I love secret collectible stuff with a passion). |
Like Troy, there is an implied judgment in your words. You sound as if you suggest that it will be a fringe minority that believes this.
| Quote: |
| "Somehow wrong or unfair.." |
Tut tut. You're putting English on the Pinball Machine. Maybe nobody else will call you on it.. but I will.  You had an editorial slant in there. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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| Watcher wrote: |
How does that part of you, that is not very amused, feel?
With all due affection, Wolfgang, sometimes you don't sound so amused about this particular topic. |
Yep, most of me is pissed off about the topic, because I'm tired of it. I'm glad that Troy and Steven defend their stance here, because otherwise it winds up being me defending it, and I don't really support their view. I just support their right to hold it.
That said, I made a promise I intend to keep, and then a person holding me to that promise implies that I won't keep it. Wow, that really, really, really annoys me.
So finding some humor in any of this is my best defense against a certain anger.
| Quoted From The LiveJournal wrote: |
| Like Troy, there is an implied judgment in your words. You sound as if you suggest that it will be a fringe minority that believes this. |
Hey, I made the promise, I'm sticking by it. That doesn't mean that Troy and Steven are *right* in holding me to it. They are (quite clearly) keeping to the letter of the agreement. That's not wrong or unfair.
The way this stirs up current patrons is where it gets ugly. That's when the wrong and unfair shows up. And that's why the important setting material from S&B shows up in the Zobeck Gazetteer, for the public.
I totally, totally have a slant in there. I'll keep my word to the original patrons. Doesn't mean I have to *like* it.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press
Last edited by Wolfgang on Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: I noticed. |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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| Watcher wrote: |
| Wolfgang wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "Somehow wrong or unfair.." |
Tut tut. You're putting English on the Pinball Machine. Maybe nobody else will call you on it.. but I will. You had an editorial slant in there. |
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Yes, I noticed. I was the person who was asking all the questions that resulted in the poll in the first place.
That said, (and I concede that just because I was first does not make my viewpoint any more valuable, though that I had the interest to ask the question may) I think it is absolutely Wolfgang's prerogative to put some English on the pinball machine. It is his machine after all.
Open Gaming needs to be enjoyable and fulfilling for him, more than it does for any of us. If he editorially nudges something this way or that, well, no one puts as much time or effort into these endeavors as he does.
Point it out if you like, but it doesn't bother me a whit. |
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| kenmarable |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Apr 2008
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| Watcher wrote: |
| You sound as if you suggest that it will be a fringe minority that believes this. |
Considering this exact topic has come up on a very regular basis since right about the time Wolfgang ended Steam & Brass and started a 2nd project, I'd say he's probably gotten a larger sample of opinions on this topic than anyone else (and I'm sure much larger sample of opinions than he cares to have).
Besides, we all know kobolds run the place, so a little snarkiness is natural with a small and scrappy operation like this.  |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1625
Location: Your TARDIS
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Yep, most of me is pissed off about the topic, because I'm tired of it. I'm glad that Troy and Steven defend their stance here, because otherwise it winds up being me defending it, and I don't really support their view. I just support their right to hold it.
That said, I made a promise I intend to keep, and then a person holding me to that promise implies that I won't keep it. Wow, that really, really, really annoys me.
So finding some humor in any of this is my best defense against a certain anger. |
Absolutely.
Forgive me, but I wanted you to voice that frustration. Because I know that's how you really feel about it.
Part of the frustration I had in replying to Troy is that every question he poses is framed in a context that my honest answer should condemn me in his eyes. I faced with a choice of arguing with a museum curator about his field of expertise, or embracing everything that he would portray as wrongbad.
Hell yes I resent the power the Four have. I'm very much channeling a promethean mindset. Heck, more than once I've voted opposite of Troy just because I was mad about Steam & Brass. Under normal circumstances I would never admit that, because I can just imagine all the other Patrons gasping in horror and shock, wagging their fingers at me about how I had corrupted the process. lol
(And as a precaution, kids, do please spare me the gasping and finger wagging)
But the only way to get off this hook is to just let it go. Let Troy and Co. observe the principals they believes in, and walk away. Let the darn book tumble into a chasm like the Holy Grail in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. It isn't worth dragging out any further.
But why ask you to voice your frustration?
Because if you have deal with it, then I can deal with it. Anybody should be able to deal with it. I'm sorry if that came across as a dirty trick.
Aberzanzorax and Ken Marable don't understand, that like a lawyer, I was asking a question to which I already knew the answer.
| Wolfgang wrote: |
| I totally, totally have a slant in there. I'll keep my word to the original patrons.Doesn't mean I have to *like* it. |
Best line out of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade!
I suppose what I was trying to say is that despite how you feel about it, you came across to me as actually championing the absolute exclusivity of the original patrons.
| Quote: |
| Some gamers seem to think that limited editions are somehow wrong or unfair or something |
Yet that is not your position. You like the secret collective stuff, but not the absolute exclusivity. There was a little disconnect there for me, and with humor I was trying to get you to expound on that a little.
Which was a mistake, because it wasn't understood and now we have other Patrons rushing to defend you from me. Well intentioned but completely unnecessary.
| Aberzanzorax wrote: |
Yes, I noticed. I was the person who was asking all the questions that resulted in the poll in the first place.
That said, (and I concede that just because I was first does not make my viewpoint any more valuable, though that I had the interest to ask the question may) I think it is absolutely Wolfgang's prerogative to put some English on the pinball machine. It is his machine after all.
Open Gaming needs to be enjoyable and fulfilling for him, more than it does for any of us. If he editorially nudges something this way or that, well, no one puts as much time or effort into these endeavors as he does.
Point it out if you like, but it doesn't bother me a whit. |
To which all I can ask is whay do you seem angry? Or that you must defend him from me? Do you actually think I was attacking him?
I like to think that Wolfgang and I get along pretty well. We're not personal friends, but I'd be glad to buy him dinner the first opportunity. I just live across the country is all.
I often speak to him as a peer, rather than as an authority figure. In game design he is the absolute authority, but I speak him to as a regular person. More as a friend, than my employee, or me as his customer. Maybe that comes across as disrespectful to someone who doesn't know that, or isn't as comfortable themselves. I'm not trying to give him a hard time, honest.
| kenmarable wrote: |
| Besides, we all know kobolds run the place, so a little snarkiness is natural with a small and scrappy operation like this. |
Of course, agreed. |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: I wasn't angry. |
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@ Watcher: Your posts are nearly always very well reasoned and amply respectful and fair.
I wasn't angry and didn't think you were attacking him per se. I did think you were giving him a bit of a nudge, and that's fine. Open discourse is important, and judging from prior posts on a number of other threads Wolfgang is entirely capable of both taking honest criticism and defending himself when he feels is it not warranted.
I guess I also feel a bit guilty for driving-or at least contributing to- this current discussion again (though for me the first time) and opening old wounds. I'd be willing to drop it if the community- or just Wolfgang- asks me to. At the time of my last post, defending Wolfgang may have just made me feel better for dredging this up.
I hope I haven't offended you (Watcher) or cast you in a negative light. That was never my intention.
(I did know that you were asking him a question to which you already knew the answer, by the way...the only thing I wanted to comment on/correct was the having a slant on his poll introduction. I think we all are well aware of how Wolfgang feels about this. You say like a lawyer, I say Socratic questioning like a psychologist) |
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| jerrie luginbill |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Location: lynden washington
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At this point this will be my last post here. I will await the next round of new patrons that in 6 months will do the same. I am at this point emotionally drained.
To answer a few questions:
M8adam. Absolutley you can drive up. I will let you look at it. My house is small so I cannot put you up over night but there are some places you may be able to crash.
Watcher. I can only say thank you for you post. Actually you may not understand my world viewpoint but you did understand the reason for me asking the questions. I do not seek to condemn anybody for their belliefs or for basic human need. Those questions were stated with an intended edge to get some anger going so that I might get some honest feelings instead of theoretical arguments that I have stated many times I don't agree with.
I understand that basic human need to complete, control and own (not in a collectors sense), I have it in other areas of my life, so lordy no, I do not condemn you. I would like people to talk from where they are really coming from because then solutions can occure. No you won't get an actual copy of Steam and Brass, but it sure looks like much of the content will be made available so you have to be a little happy about that.
And in regards to the power of the situation I can easily see your frustration. I have also run into situations where I have given people power and it is detrimental to only one person. I did not sign up as a patron on Steam and Brass to gather power. I never sought to become a king in a small kingdom. I saw an ad in Dragon, I investigated, signed up and began the discussion of the patron project. It was very interesting those first few days as many different adventures were discussed and voted on. It was a grand experience. An experience I came out of with a realization that I was looking at the burgeoning front wave of a large scale cultural movement. Yes it will take 20 years to happen en masse but it will be significant and world changing. But please don't hate me because of a power I never sought. There is no evil intent in what I am doing and I am not doing to just to piss people off.
Wolfgang: I understand why you would not want the patron model as created to continue. It must be detrimental your emotions as well as your pocketbook (which I know isn't the reason you did this but money is certainly a factor.) You of all people have gotten the most phone calls, the most email and continued lobbying against exclusive products, regardless of your beliefs. I thank you for maintaining your integrity and your committment to the former patrons, not just on S&B, but on all the projects. Your bomber undoubtedly took the most flak. It will be interesting to see where and how this evolves both as a gaming thing and in relation to the world stage.
Thank you all for your time, concern and thoughts.
Last edited by jerrie luginbill on Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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@Troy
I am deeply dissapointed you did not respond to my last post to you-the one at the top of this page. Would you care to touch upon my points?
Most specifically, the "viewing room" option was something that may meet your standards and my desires. |
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| jerrie luginbill |
| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Location: lynden washington
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Aberzanzorax, sorry, your question to me got lost in the resulting shuffle.
I assume you want my thougts on a viewing room process. I have actually considered this many times, as it would solve some if not all of the concerns people have. But the one thing I have learned about the internet and digital medium is that it is easily reproducable, changeable, watermarks can easily be removed, images can be copied and that there is no way to trully guard anything posted on the internet. If you post it then anyone can use it to their own ends regardless of the safeguards you put in place. Hence I would be glad to share it in person, away from a scanner.
Now I am done. |
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