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| Qwilion |
 Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Closed Projects (unpurchaseable backcopies) |
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Patron
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 218
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[Redacted statement, due to Krunger00 convining me by the nature of argument that I was in fact a moron]
May I humbly suggest a legal way for me to purchase these (especially in print), [Redacted statement, due to Krunger00 convining me by the nature of argument that I was in fact a moron]
Patrons have a right, to their special experience, but at least one of the patrons on each of these products has made that idea null and void. I don't mind jumping through hoops to meet the terms of previous projects if its impossible, I am also not suggesting a retroactive change to their terms.
This is just my concern.
Last edited by Qwilion on Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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| KnightErrantJR |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Posts: 32
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Honestly, I would love to own these, but I didn't get in on the patronage projects so far. Its a trade off that I've made based on what my gaming priorities are. I love Wolfgang's work, but I really do want to have my Pathfinder library pretty beefy.
Someday I may get on the bandwagon and the extra cash and become a patron, but in the meantime I'm going to keep up my Kobold Quarterly, and I'm really, really likely to get a copy of the Zobeck Gazetteer.
I guess the short story is that, I get that I didn't do what I needed to do to get those items, and someday, if they are available legally, I'll look into them, and if they aren't then, well, I guess I won't get them. Simple as that.
I don't think anyone should feel blackmailed into "having" to provide something because someone else might make it available illegally. |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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First I'd like to apologize for the rant below...
I'm not one of the Patrons who have "locked out" the non-patrons...
But I felt compelled to reply to this...
By using your logic, my neighbor ought to give his permission for me to sleep with his wife... because I really would like to, and, after all, he can't stop me from convincing her to have an illicit affair with me...
So he should prevent me from having to resist the temptation of flirting with his wife, and just give me permission to sleep with her.
I don't see your temptation to commit an unethical act (download pirated books) as being the responsibility of Open Design.
In fact, I almost view your post here as a threat to Open Design…
GIVE ME WHAT I WANT OR I’LL JUST TAKE IT so please, so that I don’t do that, please just let me have it… I’ll pay you!
Or maybe I’m just tired and grumpy this evening.
Hate me if you want to. |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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Ok... I'm floored.
I just realised that the author of this post (Steve Russel) is himself a game publisher (Rite Publishing)...
And he is threatening Open Design to sell him previous OD projects or else he will download pirated copies.
Wow...
I'm at a loss for words. |
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| Qwilion |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 218
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| Quote: |
| he is threatening Open Design to sell him previous OD projects or else he will download pirated copies |
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Bull!
I never at anytime said if you don't do X I will do Y and I resent the implication.
"May I humbly suggest a legal way for me to purchase these"
That is what I said, I voiced a concern that I cannot legally purchase these products, which I may wish to do in the future
I also specifically said I did not want the terms of the projects to be changed in order for this to happen.
| Quote: |
| "a game publisher" |
Why should this make any difference? I purchase my patronage just like anyone else.
Yes I have have a big mouth, from time to time I shoot it off. if that costs me so be it, I would rather be honest and passionate about what I care about, than worry about my personal opinions offending you.
| Quote: |
| " because someone else might make it available illegally" |
There is no "might" it is available illegally.
I have no problem with you attacking the nature of my argument.
I however won't get into the nature of sleeping with anyone's wife. As this is more than comparing apples to oranges, its comparing apples to headless corpses.
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| "I don't see your temptation to commit an unethical act (download pirated books) as being the responsibility of Open Design. " |
I agree. and this is an excellent point and will redact my statment to that effect.
However the fact remains is that the current policy leaves no ethical or legal alternative.
Open Design has zero responsibility to do anything for me other than to honor their agreements. I simply would like to do the right thing and stll be able to own empire of the ghouls as a print book.
As you said though, I may also be out of line on pain meds and lack of sleep so I will also apologize if I was ranting.
_________________
Steve "Quillion" Russell
Rite Publishing
Breaking of Fostor Nagar (PFRPG/Maptool) |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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The piracy of some Open Design work was a hugely depressing blow at a time I really didn't need more bad news. The ongoing piracy is an argument in favor of quitting as a designer of patron projects, because the whole point of a patron system was some form of mutual trust.
Patrons trusted I wouldn't just take the money and run, or turn over a short, shoddy work. I trusted the patrons to keep a private publication private.
To call this disappointing in a huge understatement. Every time I think about it, I just want to say the hell with the aggravation, I'll go write my next novel instead.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Qwilion |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 218
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I can understand that, I have the same reaction.
Yet I try to look at it this way, there are still people out there who still do the right thing and buy a book the legal and ethical way. Who want to pay for, what they could get for free, for no other reason that it's the right thing to do.
Those are the patrons and customers to remember, the ones who make it worth all the heartache.
Its just my opinion, I could be wrong.
_________________
Steve "Quillion" Russell
Rite Publishing
Breaking of Fostor Nagar (PFRPG/Maptool) |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| Qwilion wrote: |
| Quote: |
| he is threatening Open Design to sell him previous OD projects or else he will download pirated copies |
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Bull!
I never at anytime said if you don't do X I will do Y and I resent the implication.
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Well, the nice thing is that now that you have edited your original post, and that I did not Quote you... I am unable to defend my position.
I know what I read.
But to go from memory, you started your post with something along the lines of "If I can't purchase them by legal means, all that is left is illegal"
That was the very first line (or some version of it) of your post. Does it come right out and say that you WILL download? No... but if I grabbed your collar and put my fist in your face, assumptions could be made (not that I would EVER resort to physical violence with you, do not misunderstand)... your opening statement was written in such a way as to lead Wolfgang that you would, in fact, download pirated copies if he refused your blackmail.
But, of course, you have erased the evidence of that, now haven't you?
Is comparing theivery to adultery the same as comparing apples to oranges? Possibly.
Do I care?
No. It might not have been the best comparison. But I stand by it. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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You're totally right. It only takes that one patron to leave a taste of ashes in my mouth, but I shouldn't let one asshole ruin it for everyone else.
But it's still tooth-grindingly annoying.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
The piracy of some Open Design work was a hugely depressing blow at a time I really didn't need more bad news. The ongoing piracy is an argument in favor of quitting as a designer of patron projects, because the whole point of a patron system was some form of mutual trust.
Patrons trusted I wouldn't just take the money and run, or turn over a short, shoddy work. I trusted the patrons to keep a private publication private.
To call this disappointing in a huge understatement. Every time I think about it, I just want to say the hell with the aggravation, I'll go write my next novel instead. |
Wolfgang, I am truely sorry that Mr. Russel brought this up. In fact, I am truely sorry if my reply to him had brought it to your attention.
You have to do what you have to do. However, as a patron since OD1, I beg of you to think long and hard about this.
Perhaps a watermarked pdf? As distasteful as those are to me, I would GLADLY take a watermarked pdf over the thought of the end of OD.
That way you would KNOW who was releasing the pdf's into the wild. Maybe that would encourage patrons to *NOT* share electronic copies.
Although, I'm willing to bet it wasn't a patron but more likely someone associated with a patron who has released these. Although, perhaps I have my blinders on where it comes to the other patrons but I hope that they are a cut above the rest. |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| KnightErrantJR wrote: |
I don't think anyone should feel blackmailed into "having" to provide something because someone else might make it available illegally. |
Funny, seems I am not the only one who felt that Mr. Russel was blackmailing Wolfgang.
Of course, since the original post has been edited away... we can't really say now can we?
Oh well. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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I'm going to keep doing Open Design projects because I enjoy doing them, but certainly I'll consider options to slow down piracy.
The next one might be print-only, it might be watermarked, or it might be something else entirely. Not sure what the right solution is, honestly, but it's clear that I was naive about at least one member of the audience.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Qwilion |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 218
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| Quote: |
| your opening statement was written in such a way as to lead Wolfgang that you would, in fact, download pirated copies if he refused your blackmai |
l.
I now realize it could be taken that way, If it was taken that way I apologize it was not ment that way.
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| But, of course, you have erased the evidence of that, now haven't you? |
Sigh, I removed it because you made a good argument about Open Design not being responsible for "one asshole" as Wolfgang put it.
Since I don't seem to be able to get my point across without putting foot in mouth I will now just shut up.
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Steve "Quillion" Russell
Rite Publishing
Breaking of Fostor Nagar (PFRPG/Maptool) |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| Qwilion wrote: |
| Quote: |
| your opening statement was written in such a way as to lead Wolfgang that you would, in fact, download pirated copies if he refused your blackmai |
l.
I now realize it could be taken that way, If it was taken that way I apologize it was not ment that way.
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| But, of course, you have erased the evidence of that, now haven't you? |
Sigh, I removed it because you made a good argument about Open Design not being responsible for "one asshole" as Wolfgang put it.
Since I don't seem to be able to get my point across without putting foot in mouth I will now just shut up. |
I accept your apology. I DID in fact take it that way... But you have apologized. I do not know you personally, and that being the case, I choose to take your apology at face value. Thank you.
As for Wolfgangs statement, I do not believe he was refering to you... I believe he was refering to the patron or patrons who sent his work out into the wild. |
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
I'm going to keep doing Open Design projects because I enjoy doing them, but certainly I'll consider options to slow down piracy.
The next one might be print-only, it might be watermarked, or it might be something else entirely. Not sure what the right solution is, honestly, but it's clear that I was naive about at least one member of the audience. |
Excellent news Wolfgang. What ever you do to combat piracy I will support. Just keep producing excellent work and let us watch!  |
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