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| Aberzanzorax |
 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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That is such a shame.
I'm also surprised that is your reasoning. You are choosing between serving your patrons and getting a nomination for an award. Wait, not even a nomination, you are dictating your product so that it fits within the margins to be eligible for that award?
If it were other reasons, I might appreaciate it, but really? I know you don't get money for the Lulu printing. You do, however, get patronage from people who want a hard copy and who don't want to be patrons without one (i.e. people like me).
I'll admit, I'm now not only upset by the decision you've made but also by the reasoning.
I hold you in high esteem, but I do think that this could potentially have been an error in your judgement. If not, at the very least, it's made your business model less appealing to this possible patron/customer.
Any chance of rethinking this?
To give you an honest numerical perspective of my own patronage thoughts:
It was a 100% chance I'd get basic patronage-with the option of printing.
It is 0% for basic without the option of printing. I won't do it.
So as things stand now, it's a question of what % chance I might want to do the next level up. That's $50 for me plus printing [using Zobek as a guide-$11 to $22 depending on using combos or not] and shipping. It starts to get close to $75 for what I really want...basic membership in a print product. Sure, I'd get the extra design stuff, and I'd be good I imagine. But it's not my true interest. My interest is in the product.
Maybe that just means I'm not a good fit with Open Design....I dunno. What I do know is that I now need to consider if I want those extras or not, and if I want them enough to drop that kind of money. I guess what I'm saying is you've dropped a 100% chance of patronage--regardless of edition--to a much lower number. I may be a patron anyway...those perks do seem cool. (and if I do become one, you'll get $25 more from me). But If I don't think I'll use them, the answer will be no. That's a shame to me. Ah well. /rambling
Last edited by Aberzanzorax on Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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I'm certainly not madly committed to the current plan. It's out there, but I may change my mind. My goal is to keep the patron edition small and special.
That's why I am hoping to keep the edition limited in some way. If it were meant to be open to everyone, it wouldn't be a patron project. It would be another mass market book. Given the recent piracy of Open Design, I'm feeling pretty burned and burned out.
I'm open to discussion; making errors in judgment is the "human condition". As always, these projects have a fair bit of give and take, so you shouldn't feel that this is a decision from on high or something.
Persuade me, and maybe it will become an unlimited print edition for the whole project.
I'm sure some patrons will not care for that option, either. It's always clear I can't please everyone.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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Well, I know the piracy burns you. That sucks. It SHOULD burn you (to a degree-today it seems to be a form of theft that is inevitable and must be guarded against, like shoplifting, and that's sad). I'd have expected better from a small community like this.
I guess as the community gets larger (and it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch) the chance of one bad apple increases.
I, for one would be happy with JUST print. I imagine that'd be harder to pirate anyway.
How about an either/or option? I don't need the PDF at all (they just sit on my hard drive and wait for a search I usually don't need to do because the projects have been laid out pretty well).
I'd love to be a patron of it at basic with no PDF access, but with a chance to print it once.
I know people in other countries seem to prefer pdfs cost-wise. Those who want both could get the $50 patronage.
I can't say that's a "Better" solution, but it is one that would meet my needs.
One other point: piracy (so far as I know) is ONLY in the form of digital. While people can scan print if they really are motivated, the final products are always PDF (or doc or whatever). I guess I'm saying that print has a kind of "guaranteed" authenticity. Taking the point to the extreme: you could release the PDF of the product for FREE and I would buy the print copy (at patron PLUS lulu printing cost). Heck, I was willing to do that in the other thread when I asked you about buying a copy of wrath in print for a friend of mine. I'm sure this is not the case for everyone, but I wonder how many others feel similarly...that print sort of makes the product feel geniune.
I'm feeling as though I'm being unclear. Here's another example. I have some friends that pirate PDFS (and no, I haven't and won't share any of my stuff with them-Open Design or otherwise- no matter how much they beg). They're particularly bad in that they will specifically seek out pdf only things because they can get them for free without any reduction in quality (it's the same as if they bought it except for the stealing). They tend not to bother with pdfs of things that are in print, because they just buy the book. In my opinion this is worse in some ways than pirating pdfs of all books, because they're stealing the WHOLE product, and if they use it at all (as opposed to the greyer ethics of the "library pirate" who just skims it and decides if he wants to delete or buy it) they've gotten what they wanted in full.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. I guess my concern is that it may encourage piracy, rather than discourage it, by making the main format of a product into pdf. I could be wrong. I hope I am. I do know that I for one, won't pirate it both due to ethics and due to my inability to read pdfs on the screen (Insider is a HUGE bust for me). Please don't take this as any kind of threat that I'd consider piracy whether or not I get my way. I do have a genuine concern that piracy may be the result, however, for the reasons I've outlined. Again, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.
Finally, I'm not surprised you're getting burned out. We're a divided crew it seems (based upon the 'Edition wars' thread and the 'limited patronage thread'). That's got to be hard to manage all the time (and certainly not fun). I'm stirring the pot with this conversation as well...just something else to manage/think about. It makes this more like running a company as an administrator and less like having fun doing projects you enjoy....Kind of a combo between rock star and agent when you just want to rock.
Maybe it would be worth taking a project off? Have a guest writer come in and take a break to get that oomph back?
Alternately, it may be best for your sanity to have things just come from on high in terms of some of these more pain in the arse discussions. You're having some of the same complications that I do DMing. I've gotten burned out not by the game, but by managing the group's requests and trying to please everyone a little too often.
In any case, I'll continue to hope for a print option at a cost I can afford, but also that Open Gaming stays running strong and that you're enjoying doing it--Even if it means I don't become a patron of this one.
Last edited by Aberzanzorax on Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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Print-only doesn't work that well, at least as best I can figure out, because Open Design is set up for a small community rather than mass market sales..
Printing and shipping are NOT cheap. This is especially true for small print runs. And the cost of print is why WotC went to the DDI, after all: they can offer Web access and PDFs for a lot less than print costs.
For a project like this, with two books and at least 128 or 160 pages of complex content, it could easily become a money loser for the short print runs we're talking about. And the majority of patrons prefer PDF, so why make people pay for what they don't want?
That said... if several patrons do want a print-only option, I could set one up by raising the Basic patronage cost substantially (likely over $50 for B&W, maybe over $75 if the book has a color interior). I just don't think anyone will take me up on it.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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By that, I didn't mean using a standard print run.
I meant:
Don't send me the PDF ever...I didn't pay for it.
Do send me the link to Lulu with no PDF download option.
I'd pay you $25 to be a patron and get access to buying the print copy. I'd pay lulu the $11-20 for printing.
In essence, the model would be the same as now, but patrons would either get the lulu option OR the pdf...not both.
(sorry I was unclear) |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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Interesting.
It provides no additional piracy protection (since a PDF edition is still out there), shuts Halls of the Mountain King out of the running in the PDF category in the ENnies, generates a little more bookkeeping, and provides no additional revenue to Open Design.
You are not yet persuasive. Although... Maybe this works for enough patrons that it's worthwhile, but right now, I'm not seeing what benefit it provides from my perspective. If the print-only option *replaced* the PDF for all basic patrons, maybe, because that provides some piracy protection.
How many people really want just print? I suppose I could run a poll. Hell, maybe this whole project should have been print-only, no PDF at all except for non-US patrons.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Aberzanzorax |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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| Quote: |
| It provides no additional piracy protection (since a PDF edition is still out there), shuts Halls of the Mountain King out of the running in the PDF category in the ENnies, generates a little more bookkeeping, and provides no additional revenue to Open Design. |
Ew.
Ya got me.
Well I'm fresh out of ideas, but I, for one, would prefer print only over pdf only. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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I'll put up a poll and see whether most folks would prefer that route. It might be time to switch over, or at least change up the mix a bit.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| ampherion |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
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Wolfgang,
For those of us who want the product whether its 3e or 4e, the only thing we can do is fund both and wait for a refund for the unselected product. Can you add an option to "Fund either version, I don't care which?"
Also,
I will not consider any option that doesn't include print. The odd thing here is that it will cost a considerable amount (not even close to any other product of similar size) if a member has to pay for the expert patron option, the print book, and the shipping. We are talking an order of magnitude. I will have to consider it carefully. |
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| xero |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 67
Location: New Jersey
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| ampherion, to help assuage some of your concerns, I'd like to point out that the Print or PDF poll, put up specifically because of this discussion here, posed an apparently equitable compromise and the tentative conclusion was that most of us who voted in the poll were in favor of it. Check it out if you're concerned about a print option. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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| ampherion wrote: |
Can you add an option to "Fund either version, I don't care which?"
I will not consider any option that doesn't include print. |
There's a "Either" option, which I'm just noting in people's votes rather than making it more confusing up front. Choose whichever you like, Ampherion, and you'll be set regardless of the vote.
Also, the print issue has been updated. You will have a print option no matter what level of patronage you choose.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| kunger00 |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 149
Location: central Texas
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| Also, the print issue has been updated. You will have a print option no matter what level of patronage you choose. |
To get clarification, is the Basic patronage print version at a marked up cost as opposed to Expert and above patronage access to an at cost print (as discussed in the poll thread)? |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4988
Location: The Mines
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That's correct. Everyone still has print access to both Gazetteer and the Adventure, but some patrons get a price break on the adventure part..
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 1625
Location: Your TARDIS
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| Dan Voyce wrote: |
On to the brainstorming! |
Senior Patrons are already hashing out ideas Dan, for the adventure side of it (sinze the Gazetteer is to be determined). That's one nice thing about having the topic picked out in advance, we can do that irrespective of Edition. Get yourself signed up.  You too Stormborn.
'Cause these are neat ideas, but not the ones being represented so far. |
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| Dan Voyce |
| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 1123
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| Watcher wrote: |
Get yourself signed up |
I hear and obey!
Like several others, I don't care which edition we get and will support either. |
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