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| Commission Status: Halls |
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| m8adam |
 Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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YEAH!! 3rd edition!!
You guys with your message boards had me worried for a minute. |
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| Tio |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
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| I'll be signing up as a basic patron again for the OGL. Just as soon as I get around to it and money becomes available (or the dollar drops again). |
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| Arawn76 |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Cool, thanks!
The 3E/OGL lead widened quite a bit this weekend. I'm curious to see whether that holds up during the work week.
I'm still trying to figure out whether 4E's lack of traction means anything. As in, are my friends at WotC happy that they are taking all the 4E purchases, or sad because the 4E crowd is smaller than they let on? I really don't know. |
I think some of it is the scarcity of disposable income nowadays. It's easier to drop £8-10 on a module from the store than pay for something that you won't see for months. Also I don't think a lot of the 4e people fully appreciate the open design process for what it is, an opportunity to see great mechanics married to solid & exciting story with depth of roleplay as an integral not optional part.
The 3e crowd for the most part are seeing their adventure sources (exception of Paizo) slowly drying up so their more willing to drop a little extra cash for good adventures. Plus I do think they tend to be a slightly older crowd (like myself  ) so they tend to be less interested in instant gratification and more in love with the game as an artistic expression.
Just an opinion and one I hope that makes sense, writing in work at the moment with CSM wandering about.
Personally I'm rooting for 4e all the way, Wrath IMNSHO really highlights where these adventures should be heading and I salivate in an unhealthy manner at the thought of a dwarven uber adventure. |
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| xero |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Arawn, i would have thought that the absolute dearth of quality material for 4E would have mitigated some of the effect you mentioned. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| xero wrote: |
| Arawn, i would have thought that the absolute dearth of quality material for 4E would have mitigated some of the effect you mentioned. |
I'm not sure we can factor in all the reasons why Wrath took off and Hall isn't, for 4E.
The number of donations certainly is benchmark, but the circumstances are different in subtle ways. Let me illustrate:
1.) Wrath and Tales of Zobeck were sort of in competition with each other, but not directly.
Wolfgang said whichever gets funded first will be written first, which set up the competition.. but one could discuss one Project without accenting or drawing a lot of attention to the other. In other words, you could promote one project and not the other.
(And for the record, Wolfgang changed his mind, did both Wrath and Tales at the same time, and decided that didn't work for him or Open Design and actively took steps to make sure it didn't happen again.)
You can't do that in this scenario. The two Editions are in direct competition with each other. And I really challenge any notion that it isn't a competition. How 'personal' that competition is, falls on the individual. Wolfgang is leaving fiscal support to be the deciding factor here rather than asserting a choice on his part, and in that respect he's not made it personal. If a customer becomes alienated by the Edition choice, Wolfgang can point to that as a means to defend himself.
Again, just to be redundant:
Wrath versus Tales = indirect competition
Hall 3.5 versus Hall 4E = direct competition
And if one feels that it shouldn't be a competition, I agree with that sentiment. Nevertheless, it still is one. For practical reasons rather than desire.
2.) Salesmanship
The 3.5 Open Design community is strong, but the 4E Open Design is young.
This is merely my supposition, but for 4E to really overcome 3.5, people are going to have to hit the figurative internet streets and "knock on doors" and make good old fashioned sales pitches for it.
Posting notifications on messageboards isn't going to grow 4E support for Open Design, because the 3.5 contingent is already so strong.
I have much love and respect for Terraleon (Ben), and I appreciate the responsibility he has taken on as someone with a definitive responsibility for spreading the news about Open Design in various communities. I say that up front, because I don't want to appear to be in any sort of rivalry with him. In fact, his temprement is probably better suited to it than mine.
However, when Tales was up for commissioning, I was one of the people who really hit the messageboards hard in support for it. Not just in making posts, but keeping them bumped up, referring them to Wolfgang, posting sections of the FAQ, and answering questions.. And more importantly offering testimonials about the Open Design process.
And I did it specifically for Wrath. I never knocked Tales, but I was completely biased and an aggressive salesman. Even though I was a high level Patron of Tales! I literally campaigned and lobbied for Wrath. (Tales really didn't need to be pushed, you see.) Hell, I broke rules and not only posted in the Publisher's Areas, but I posted in the General Discussion areas too, and just prayed that the Moderators wouldn't nuke me (and they usually were pretty forgiving and didn't take me to task, except on RPG.Net).
But as aside, if you're posting on ENWorld, you need to be in the General Discussion area because the ratio of times your post will be viewed will be 200 to 5 compared to the Publisher's area.
Now, despite what I just wrote, I am not presuming to take credit for Wrath coming into existence. That would be arrogant and untrue. I am however saying this to illustrate what I think it requires for 4E to beat out 3.5 in an Open Design Project.
It needs a grassroots movement and a lot of persuading, campaigning and effort on the people who want to see it happen.
If you just announce the possibility of a 4E project, it will not overcome the dedicated 3.5 Patrons. You're going to need to push it.
And frankly, I've been too busy and too tired to do that myself. I threw my money in the pot along with the option to transfer to 3.5 if that is the deciding choice. I tried to drum up some support on EnWorld and lost my temper in the process. (And since walked away from it, so as not to reflect poorly on Open Design). This time, my money will have to speak for me, and it looks like Hall will be a 3.5 Project instead. Oh well, that's the way it goes and I accept that.
You're gonna have to sell a 4E Project. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
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After all that "WALL OF TEXT".. it just struck me that there is a more succient way to put it.
There is already a large 3.5 Open Design Community.
There is a much smaller 4E Open Design Community.
This might make Wolfgang sad, but he's basically got two communities when he'd ideally like to have one. And some folks don't make him choose, and some folks do. And since we're talking about money, that is their right to do so.
You need to grow the 4E Open Design Community some more. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Cool, thanks!
The 3E/OGL lead widened quite a bit this weekend. I'm curious to see whether that holds up during the work week.
I'm still trying to figure out whether 4E's lack of traction means anything. As in, are my friends at WotC happy that they are taking all the 4E purchases, or sad because the 4E crowd is smaller than they let on? I really don't know. |
At the risk of overstepping my bounds here, Chief, if WOTC is in fact sad.. they've done it to themselves. They have no one else to blame.
You're no longer the Editor-In-Chief of Dragon Magazine, you're a freelance writer.
You're not an Paizo Employee, but you do a lot of contract work for Paizo, and in so much as you're a freelancer - Paizo supports Open Design. Even when I was selling Wrath on the Paizio Boards, they never said 'boo' about it. They were very good natured about it. They're good people (which is why I'm a Paizo subscriber).
Correct me if I'm wrong, if you could get WOTC freelance module work, you'd accept it, no?
Then you'd become a very familiar name in the 4E community. And that would promote and grow your 4E Open Design Community.
But if you're only going to get hired to write OGL products, then how can WOTC expect anything else?
Last edited by Watcher on Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Watcher wrote: |
But as aside, if you're posting on ENWorld, you need to be in the General Discussion area because the ratio of times your post will be viewed will be 200 to 5 compared to the Publisher's area.
...
You're gonna have to sell a 4E Project. |
Except that I would like to be effective as the PR minion for a long while, so I'm trying not to push the boundaries at various boards. I do intend to bump posts each week, give a status update, and continue to urge folks to join as patrons-- I did that as Wrath wound down and I started doing this for Wolfgang.
The other point, though, is that I'm trying to pimp Open Design and not one edition or the other. I'll try my hand at either when it comes time to pitch. While I have a preference, I'm keeping it to my paypal account. When it comes to promotion, I'm just trying to encourage patrons. 
-Ben.
_________________
progressio sine timore aut praejudica - Spectemur agendo |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| terraleon wrote: |
Except that I would like to be effective as the PR minion for a long while, so I'm trying not to push the boundaries at various boards. I do intend to bump posts each week, give a status update, and continue to urge folks to join as patrons-- I did that as Wrath wound down and I started doing this for Wolfgang.
The other point, though, is that I'm trying to pimp Open Design and not one edition or the other. I'll try my hand at either when it comes time to pitch. While I have a preference, I'm keeping it to my paypal account. When it comes to promotion, I'm just trying to encourage patrons.
-Ben. |
I hear what you're saying Ben, on both counts. I differentiated what you're doing from the advice I was giving, or I meant to in any case... You're doing the "offical" Rep thing.
But you weren't the one I was strictly speaking to! That wasn't a letter to Ben. 
I guess it was meant more towards those that are specifically vested in 4E Projects, like Xero, for example.
And I stand behind what I said. Your fair and equal representation is exactly what is required as an offical representative. BUT...
Nevertheless, I don't believe we'll see 4E beat out 3.5 any time soon for the various reasons I cited. Unless there is a change in how it is promoted, not by you, but by those who want to see it become a reality. If they want it, they're going to have to make it happen.
I'm prepared to be proven wrong. At the end of the day, I can't lose being Edition Neutral...
...although apparantly I can get irritated. Sigh.  (That was self-recrimination)
EDIT: And in retrospect, my own description of how I went about promoting Wrath has an element of bluster to it, to the degree that I'm not even being really fair to myself. As you describe, I put Open Design first.. but I made it a point to reach out to potential 4E patrons.
I don't mean to come across as encouraging mischief and mayhem on other boards. Obviously some decorum should be encouraged. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Watcher wrote: |
Correct me if I'm wrong, if you could get WOTC freelance module work, you'd accept it, no?
Then you'd become a very familiar name in the 4E community. And that would promote and grow your 4E Open Design Community. |
Yeah, I've taken WotC freelance module and sourcebook work in the past, but that was all 3E. Haven't really pitched myself to the new staff there.
Not sure whether it's worthwhile, though. The experience of freelancing for WotC is very different from freelancing for Paizo (or Open Design).
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| jmepatterson |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| I guess I take a much more simple approach to figuring these things out. I do not know a single person that has an interest in 4e. Granted, I probably don't know a statistically significant sampling of people, but come on... 3.x just rules! |
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| Arawn76 |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| xero wrote: |
| Arawn, i would have thought that the absolute dearth of quality material for 4E would have mitigated some of the effect you mentioned. |
Surely true but people know they have Wotc, dragon and even Goodman putting out regular adventure offerings, whereas 3e is limited strictly to Paizo which might not be everyone's cup of tea (I have all their stuff so that doesn't include me ) and little else.
Admittedly I'm just speculating though and I have tendency to over analyse these things from my own bias.
Anyway I've popped my money down and whilst I've voted 4e I look forward to the project regardless of edition.
@Wolfgang: On a slightly off topic note what would you say the probability of you doing a True20 open design project in the future? |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| IMO, there are two factors that come into play with the swing The first is Monte's endorsement of a 3.5 version. The second is that many are still using or have dreams of using the vast corpus of 3.5, so when you are left with the grognards having more capitol to spend, I'm not surprised that it's slightly ahead. This could all change of course. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Yeah, I've taken WotC freelance module and sourcebook work in the past, but that was all 3E. Haven't really pitched myself to the new staff there.
Not sure whether it's worthwhile, though. The experience of freelancing for WotC is very different from freelancing for Paizo (or Open Design). |
Ah..
My mistake then. I thought the option to freelance for WOTC wasn't available for some reason.
(And maybe it isn't, but not from a literally point of view) |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| varianor wrote: |
| IMO, there are two factors that come into play with the swing The first is Monte's endorsement of a 3.5 version. The second is that many are still using or have dreams of using the vast corpus of 3.5, so when you are left with the grognards having more capitol to spend, I'm not surprised that it's slightly ahead. This could all change of course. |
There is that, and I always overlook that fact.
I skipped 2nd and 3rd Edition until about a year and a half ago. My crazy ex-wife talked me into throwing all my AD&D original stuff away about 15 years ago.
So I don't have a huge library of 3.5 material, barring some used bookstore acquisitions (mostly core books) and stuff that has come out since Pathfinder Chapter One.
So I always overlook the "use all the stuff that I already bought" angle. Thanks for the reminder Varianor! |
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