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| Aberzanzorax |
 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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While my preference does lie with ogl, I think there is another, and more personal, factor that is being overlooked here.
A lot of people are angry with WotC. Specifically, they are angry with how third party publishers have been treated (from the "non-renewal" and transition of Dungeon and Dragon to electronic instead of print to the GSL debacle and continuing delays in a reasonable revision).
Personally, I'm heavily invested not in 3.x alone, but also in third party publishers. I see WotC as really destroying the market for third party publishers (at least at present). People have had to use legal savvy (KenzerCo), bend over and sign the GSL (Goodman), publish under the OGL (Paizo), or just not publish despite a desire to (Necromancer and Green Ronin--though Ronin seems to be recovering and going OGL).
In addition to anger, there is investment. Most people invested in third parties as a whole likely have been familiar with them for a while. (I'm using some specious logic here that time spent with familiarity with one of these publishers has a solid correlation with investment in that publisher).
So basically, I think that most of the third party crowd was a 3.x crowd, and have either decided to transfer to 4e or not (as opposed to new players introduced to 4e or reinvigorated from 2e to 4e). Add to that that new players of D&D who started with 4e are probably excited about the game moreso than the plethora of options you can do with it. (I'm not trying to belittle here, I'm simply saying that elves are still exciting and new for them...so why branch out to minotaurs....or WotC is still exciting and new, so why branch out to 3rd party).
Add to that that people who like 3rd party publishers have reason to be pissed at WotC (GSL). There may even be a component (irrational as it may be) of "sticking it to them" by not supporting the changes they've taken the game in, despite any validity/funness of those changes.
EDIT: Also, the lack of GSL seems to have dried up the fan support. There is still not a fansite document. I've had real trouble finding any fansites for 4e...so much so that I've posted on enworld and WotC's forums asking people to tout their own or fill me in, with very, very few results.
Finally, check into the DMOZ or Google directory for roleplaying. There is no 4th edition category. Why? No real sites? It's not just money, it's something more. What that is, I'm not so sure (I don't blame the edition, though). I might blame WotC.
http://www.google.com/Top/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Fantasy/Dungeons_%26_Dragons/
http://www.dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Genres/Fantasy/Dungeons_%26_Dragons/
I guess, to sum up my own wall of text with my personal opinion:
I love 3.x. I'm ok with 4e. I'm pissed at WotC. I'm going to support the game they want to kill. |
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| Qwilion |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: 3.X >4e |
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Joined: 26 Aug 2008
Posts: 218
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3.X >4e
will attempt to stay away from the Wall of Text category.
I have not played 4e and have no experience with it, I have not even read the rules, nor do I own them.
I am annoyed with WotC for various reasons (magazines, GSL, disregard for me as a customer and a fan).
My current group is playing an OGL game, I am the .
With The lack of support for 4E by 3PP that have earned my customer loyalty, I have no reason to switch over. (Green Ronin, Paizo, Necromancer Games, Fantasy Flight Games, etc.)
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Steve "Quillion" Russell
Rite Publishing
Breaking of Fostor Nagar (PFRPG/Maptool) |
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| xero |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 67
Location: New Jersey
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Good replies, all. Thanks.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, Watcher. And I certainly don't blame Wolfgang for making this a competition. That was a tough choice, but probably the fairest one he could make. I commend him for that.
It's a shame to see the majority of one side's patrons pull out entirely, both from the perspective of the artist (Wolfgang), and from the perspective of the losing patrons themselves. The brainstorming alone has been an amazing experience, and I don't want to stop being a part of that just because my edition lost.
I'm not entirely convinced there isn't some way to marry the two communities, but I'm not sure what compromise to suggest or how to go about suggesting it without pushing the limits of Wolfgang's patience. Until I can answer both of those questions, I'm going to be doing a little brainstorming of my own...
edit: well at the very least, I intend to try my hand at a personal 4E conversion to run this for my players, if 3E should win the day. |
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| Krell1 |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 20
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| Watcher wrote: |
[
I skipped 2nd and 3rd Edition until about a year and a half ago. My crazy ex-wife talked me into throwing all my AD&D original stuff away about 15 years ago.
So I don't have a huge library of 3.5 material, barring some used bookstore acquisitions (mostly core books) and stuff that has come out since Pathfinder Chapter One.
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Deepest and heartfelt sympathy on having a crazy ex wife, as I know that my fairly agreeable one can be a difficult sometimes. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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Xero, I'm certainly open to a compromise that keeps everyone happy, but given the importance most patrons place on the edition used, I confess I'm not sure it can be done.
The good news tonight is that we have over 100 patrons, and the commission looks like it will meet the bar in January, not February.
I won't launch the design phase until we really get there, but I'm sure having a lot of fun seeing how the brainstorming is going. There's enough material in the private posts for six adventures...
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| xero |
| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 67
Location: New Jersey
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I can only imagine how difficult this is for you, Wolfgang, as a businessman, as an artist, and as a member of this community.
I posted a possible solution on the LJ under the username 'decemberson'. It's an idea I cooked up over the course of one day with no experience in the business aspect of all of this, so I fully expect there are flaws that will be obvious to everyone but me. |
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| Sen the Collector |
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: did you get my vote? |
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Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 14
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Howdy!
I donated $50 towards the Halls of the Mountain King project today, but when I placed the order it was via the webstore, which didn't give the option of OGL or 4E. I added a note with my order that it was for the OGL/3.5 version, and I'm just wondering if my "vote" got counted.
I also ordered the print version of the Zobeck Gazetteer. I can't wait till this comes! |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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Preference is noted, and your vote is counted!
Zobeck Gazetteer should ship promptly.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Neal |
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 105
Location: Baton Rouge
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Just a random question:
Is there something about OGL that prohibits writing adventures that support both editions of the game?
I suspect the answer is "Yes," though I don't pretend to know that. I just play the games and have fun with them. |
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| Tio |
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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| Neal wrote: |
Just a random question:
Is there something about OGL that prohibits writing adventures that support both editions of the game?
I suspect the answer is "Yes," though I don't pretend to know that. I just play the games and have fun with them. |
Not in the OGL, but there is in the GSL. The GSL is what WoTC use as a license for 4th edition. It basically tells publishers they can use the GSL only for 4th edition and that they can't do any other edition for that productline when they use the GSL. |
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| DaveMage |
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 1
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3.5 all the way!
(And yes, I definitly have extra $$ now that I'm not buying all the 4E books. This isn't really a bad thing either.  ) |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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Thanks Dave! Looking around, I've realized that a LOT of 3E publishers have quit the field lately.
Malhavoc is gone, Paizo is migrating to Pathfinder soon, Goodman went 4E, Green Ronin has its own systems...
Open Design may be benefiting from a market with less options for OGL fans. Rampant speculation, but it feels that way to me. Maybe it's just normal churn.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Valmiras |
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Patron
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Shelbyville KY
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So Wolfgang, I am curious as to the expanding stratification of patron levels with this project having 4.
I am not particularly against it, but am curious about why Open Design is moving this way from a practical standpoint. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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A fit of madness overtook me.
Honestly, the major donor level arrived because I want to offer the autographed copies, but it was a loss with shipping at the $75 level. So I created the major donor level partly to offer that option.
The expert tier: I wanted a place for patrons to contribute and pitch concrete mechanical elements, without all the commitment that pitching a 8,000 or 10,000-word adventure entails. Maybe it will work out. Maybe not. It's a bit of a mad scientist lab, really.
Right now,the Experts are rocking out on some item design. I'll spring the results on the other patrons soon.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4985
Location: The Mines
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Status for today: things are a lot quieter, as the initial rush is over. But we're pretty close and I still think we'll commission this in January rather than February.
The 3E/OGL crowd is ahead.
4E patrons keep showing up, and there are plans for a solid 4E conversion shaping up even if the core design goes OGL.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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