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| Wrath River King - questions for designers and patrons |
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| Watcher |
 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: Wrath River King - questions for designers and patrons |
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Patron
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Hey Gang,
I was a patron on this project.. But only have just now talked the gang into trying 4E in order to see if they like the game at all.
Their minds are now open to the possibilities and they're pretty excited.
The agreement is to play a playtest adventure. If they like it, we start back at 1st level and have a proper campaign. In the meantime, it was felt that a mid level Heroic Tier would better represent the system than a first level adventure (magic items and more powers, a better overall sampling of what the game might be like, but not too high level).
The sample adventure to be played will be Wrath of the River King.. and its cool, cause I was a legal patron and all. I'm excited because while I'm a big O.D. geek, but I'm finally throwing Wolfgang and Co's handiwork on the gametable and running one.
Showdown starts on next Thursday evening. Welcome to Riverbend!
Now that I have put all this in context.. I have a few questions.
1.) I have (5) Players. One of them will not be able to attend the first session, but will join in for the rest adventure. We play shorter 4 hour sessions once a week.
Will (4) 4th level PCs be okay with the start of the adventure? Will (5) 4th level adventurers work okay for the entire adventure? I will awared XP and level them when appropriate.
Since this is a first impression, I want them to be the appropriate level for a fair challenge. They're very smart players, so a TPK due to be too low a level will not represent 4E very well. There is still time for them to increase their characters to 5th level if necessary.
2.) Multage?
I'm no dummy.. I assume that it's some portion of the milled grain, for services rendered. Oddly enough I can't find this word on Google. Am I correct? Is multage just some portion of the milled grain product that the miller takes as a fee, and then turns around and sell- or his family bakes with?
3.) The grinding stones.. I'm having trouble visualizing this, and the interwebs aren't helping. Its a small thing but I like to be able to describe this stuff to players.
I'm looking at the description on Page 5, under CELLARS, Second paragraph.
What I'm picturing is that there are two 'stations' (if you will). One station is large and the other is small. And, that each of them have a top and a bottom stone. At both 'stations' the top grinding stone is in place, but at the larger station the bottom stationary stone is missing.
Is this correct?
This is no complaint, but what I *think* I'm reading is that a millstone (or 'stone') is composed of parts that are also called stones. So to say 'stone' you could be referring to the overall device, or you could be referring to one of its components.
And I'm not meaning to nitpcik, I just want to make sure I sound like I know what the heck I'm talking about when I get behind the DM's screen. 
I'll pass along any more questions as I find them. Thanks in advance! |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
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1) You're probably fine with 5 4th level players, but 4 4th might be too few, depending on the class mix. You really, really need a wizard and a striker for a couple early encounters.
2) Multage is throughly archaic, but came through a reference book on milling, I think. You might find it in the complete OED. Or I might have typo'ed it. In any case, the meaning you assumed is entirely correct; it's the miller's fee for his work, taken in flour.
3) Yep, two stones make up a ... millstone. One is immobile and fixed to the floor. THe other on top rotates to grind the flour.
And there are two such stations in the mill.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| 1) You're probably fine with 5 4th level players, but 4 4th might be too few, depending on the class mix. You really, really need a wizard and a striker for a couple early encounters.. |
Hmm.. for the first session I'll have a Battlerager Fighter, Cleric, Fey Warlock, and a Wizard. I expect the first session will do all of Chapter 1.
The fifth player will be a Warlord.
Sounds like it might work then.. as long as they don't cross over before being joined by the Warlord. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
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Yeah, though having four cross over and then 1 show up later is ok. Weird stuff happens in the Feywild; your group might be ok with just handwaving it.
With the crazed schedules my playtesters had, I was just happy to have 4 or 5 of the group every time out. But even a single player makes a big difference.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| ishtarre |
| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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I have been running this and having a blast so far. We had 6 level 4 PCs initially (dropping to 5 as of last sesseion as one player is away abroad to work for the forseeable future). Certainly they have had no problems being level 4 and I have increased the opposition slightly to compensate for the 6th PC. They have no wizard, but have not really noticed the lack. They have a fighter, paladin, warlord, cleric, two-weapon ranger and rogue. Previous to Wrath, they had a wizard, but the player was less impressed with the effectiveness of his 4E wizard and changed to a warlord for Wrath.
The Green Knight fight might prove dangerous for the group you describe if there is only 4 of them - if the knight gets lucky on his first charge, then they could rapidly find themselves down a fighter (as happenned with my group), with the wizard not so useful against powerful creatures and the knight could rapidly get to the warlock to take down the main damage dealing ranged attacker.
To date though the river has come closest to seeing a party death, with the party very glad to all reach land before the waterfall. I used the mini-game for the river and it seemed to make for an exciting desperate encounter, especially as they did not all enter at the same time but over the course of about 8 rounds due to the way in which they explored the millpond for the gateway. Time for the eelhounds next session whilst they try and recover their breath and dry their stuff on the riverbank. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Patron
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Wolfgang and Ishtarre (and whoever else may wish to answer),
I’m struggling with the adjudication of the bugbear encounter. Specifically their hide-attack-move and hide again trick.
I see how it is supported in the rules, and I don’t have a problem with that. My issue is how to fairly describe it to the players. They are analytical, and even if they don’t challenge me at the table, they’re sure to research it later. I’d love to get it right the first time.
A.) The bugbears start out with line of sight and are hidden. Unless they’re spotted with passive perception they take their shot ‘invisibly’. Got that.
B.) Once they attack. They become unhidden. Got that.
C.) They can then make a move action, at the end of which they can make another Stealth roll to become hidden. Got that.
What happens between A & B is what has me concerned.
1.) Do I reveal the source of the shot and the square it came from?
2.) Do I reveal the source of the shot and then let them see the bugbear move to it’s new square, and then determine the outcome of the stealth roll? (They’ll know what square he’s in then, but will still impart a -5 to hit if successful).
The implication here is that the bugbear can try to hide no matter what, and that imparts a -5 to hit if successful; but if the PCs know the square he’s hiding in then they don’t have to guess (and therefore have a chance to guess wrong.. which is an automatic miss).
3.) Do I reveal nothing, except to allow their Passive Perceptions a chance to spot the bugbear in its new location (with its new Stealth roll)? Otherwise they wait their turn to try to find them again.
A few things to bear in mind.
- Passive Perception is not an action, it just is, like a free action only it does not have to be declared. Active Perception, however, is a minor action per the errata. (Though ‘searching’ is a 1 minute action but that is not relevant here) |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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The “Features of the Area” text in Page 7 has me confused.
My apologies, Wolfgang, you’d be justified to throw up your hands and ask “Where was all of this stuff when we were doing errata, Jim?” I have no good answer, this is the first time I’ve gone through the text very carefully.
Actually it is pretty rare for me to do heavy crunch. Maybe I should do it more often.
Before I get into this.. I would like to pass on a suggestion to the Editors of Hall of the Mountain King 4E. Please put lighting, terrain (as applies to movement), and cover/concealment on different paragraph lines. What I’m seeing here is that movement and cover/concealment are mixed together in one paragraph and it is hard to tell what modifier is applying to what. -2 to hit, -2 to move, you say tomato, I say tomatoe?
Put ‘em separate lines next time. Pleeeze. 
*****************
Lighting is the easiest one, but I might as well check to be sure. Only the specific shaded areas provide +2 to Stealth, correct?
It gets tougher.
Cover: The first sentence says the whole wooded area grants cover. So about 2 squares north of the road, everybody has -2 to hit everybody, including area effects and so forth (because this is cover and not concealment).
About the line of the stone ledge, the forest grants superior cover (-5), but only until an enemy moves. If they start moving between the trees, they only get normal cover (-2).
There’s something odd about that superior cover. The nature of the superior cover changes based upon the action of the NPCs. Normally I would think of cover as static, not changing. I’d be tempted to ask if they get superior cover back if they stopped moving, or if they only have their cover reduced to normal while moving (like interrupt attack). But I don’t think that is the intent of the text, and it gets strange if the players get out in that deep wooded area with the bugbears. Nobody would hit anybody then.
Also if a tree occupies a whole square it’s an obstacle. I assume?
Terrain: The stone ledge is very clearly difficult terrain.
But the text alludes to undergrowth marked on the map, and that is subjective. How are you defining undergrowth here? The trees, roots, and branches?
No kidding, I’ve spent some time going back and forth from the PHB and the adventure on this. My best guess is that the undergrowth is represented by places where the trees are not occupying an entire square. A tree that occupies a whole square should be an obstacle (and can not be moved through), but when obstacles overlap multiple squares but do not block any one in particular- that is difficult terrain.
So by that logic the square that Mulchmouth is standing in is difficult terrain.
I’d still like some clarification, because I’m mostly looking at the tree roots. If the clouded branches are part of the defined undergrowth, then I need to know.
Sorry! |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
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| Watcher wrote: |
What happens between A & B is what has me concerned.
1.) Do I reveal the source of the shot and the square it came from?
2.) Do I reveal the source of the shot and then let them see the bugbear move to it’s new square, and then determine the outcome of the stealth roll? (They’ll know what square he’s in then, but will still impart a -5 to hit if successful).
The implication here is that the bugbear can try to hide no matter what, and that imparts a -5 to hit if successful; but if the PCs know the square he’s hiding in then they don’t have to guess (and therefore have a chance to guess wrong.. which is an automatic miss).
3.) Do I reveal nothing, except to allow their Passive Perceptions a chance to spot the bugbear in its new location (with its new Stealth roll)? Otherwise they wait their turn to try to find them again. |
1) If you want to take the game-friendly approach, just let them see the bugbear move in a certain direction (but maybe don't put the mini back down...?).
In the real world, paintball has taught me it is remarkably difficult to know where fire is coming from in a forest where foes are even modestly hidden by cover. Make them do the minor action to see the movement, otherwise the bugbear dashes, shoots, and scoots.
2) This could be too much bookkeeping. In playtest, I just imposed the -5 until a character made a Perception roll.
3) The only time it matters is on the player's turn, so it's really not an issue WHEN they make the roll to try to find them.
Yeah, the stealth rules are a bit... Convoluted, but they seem to work ok.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
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My apologies for the difficulty with the bugbear map.
Yes, all the tree squares are obstacles. There were supposed to be markers for the difficult terrain squares, but I don't really see them.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
My apologies for the difficulty with the bugbear map.
Yes, all the tree squares are obstacles. There were supposed to be markers for the difficult terrain squares, but I don't really see them. |
I don't mean to dump on it. No apologies necessary.
I haven't followed Halls much lately in these early stages, but this is a good taste of how invaluable and necessary a thorough reading is in the later stages.
I see some other issues with the text of this encounter.
The traps are listed as making melee attacks, but I think that should be ranged (since '10' is listed where the Range should be).. Also, you have to consider that if they really are supposed to be melee attacks, then they're rolling initiative and then attacking. Well, it's likely the character might move out of the square of the trigger before the trap can attack. Not much of a trap if it doesn't have much of a chance to score a hit. If it is a melee trap then it should attack as an interrupt. If it's ranged 10, then it doesn't matter and the trap attacks the player wherever they're standing (within reason I guess).
Also early on in the encounter text, it says return fire is at a negative -2 until the Bugbears are found with perception checks.. but later they're described as being hidden in superior cover, so that's -5.
Again, this is not "beat up on Wolfgang day."
Reading these things is a shared responsibility for Patrons, which I was one of. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
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| Watcher wrote: |
| Again, this is not "beat up on Wolfgang day." |
Yes, and three groups of playtesters and an editor looked at that text as well... So sometimes things do slip past everyone.
The bugbear encounter was one of the first designed, and it got reinvented a bit as we came to grips with the 4E jargon and approach. In this case, you're absolutely right: the traps should be an immediate melee attack.
The superior cover should be -5; not sure why the earlier reference contradicts that.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| varianor |
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| The editor apologizes, and will decline future 4E work. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Well, that's up to you, but I'm not a designer who believes that it's always the editors fault...
We had my initial mistake, we failed to catch it in playtest, we didn't get it in editing and proofing, and the patrons all missed it in the request for errata.
It's unfortunate, but there are worse errors than an inconsistent cover penalty.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| varianor wrote: |
| The editor apologizes, and will decline future 4E work. |
No, no, no...
I know you have a smiley face in your post, but we have to be able to talk about this stuff. It isn't meant to undermine anybody, or kick anybody in the shins.
Honestly, if you look at the majority of my posts in both KQ and OD.. I talk a lot of theory and story elements. Because I'm not a crunch guy.
This is rare because my players do like their crunch, and this will be the first time I've ran 4E.
So I'm under the hood and getting greasy with the mechanics. For once.
I don't mean to rain on your day Varianor. |
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| Watcher |
| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
It's unfortunate, but there are worse errors than an inconsistent cover penalty. |
Absolutely.
If I had been more familiar with the rules I'd probably never have posted anything.
But on the flip side, don't make me feel ashamed to have asked some questions, Varianor. That doesn't get us anywhere. |
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