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| How different are Pathfinder and 3.5? |
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| thorr-kan |
 Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: How different are Pathfinder and 3.5? |
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Pondering one of the new OD patronages. But I don't have time/budget/energy to learn a new system.
How different are Pathfinde and 3.5?
How easy to swap back and forth? |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Mechanically, they're almost the exact same thing. I think PF and 3.5 are closer related, for example, than 3.5 and 4e. I think somebody could take a 3.5 adventure and run it in PF without a problem. And the opposite is also true. In either case, you'll find differences but you can either just ignore them or easily swap back and forth.
Character creation, however, is a whole different animal. The two system have significant differences in races, base classes, level benefits, and so on that there isn't much in the way of compatibility. I think somebody could, for example, take a warlock or a scout and play it in a PF game just fine (maybe the character would be a little underpowered). But somebody couldn't use the 3.5 PHB to build an elf wizard; there's just too many differences.
For this specific product... I think adventures are probably the most portable element. I think it's pretty similar, as far as the amount of work goes, to taking a 3.0 adventure and running it in 3.5. For example, I'm currently running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil for my group using the 3.5 rules. As DM, I have to spend a little bit of time checking up on NPC stats and monster stats, but overall, I can just flop my book open and run it, and I could ignore all those differences in the NPC stat blocks and monster stat blocks and so on.
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| varianor |
| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I would say that the "differences" are, for almost everything I've read, "improvements". Skills, for example, combine various perceptive rolls into one. A huge improvement. Characters with certain options (like druids with animal companions) now have a second option instead of being locked into a certain flavor element that not everyone cares for or chooses to use. Races have been tweaked (me likey!). Feats have several nice little changes, and a couple cool additions (Dodge is +1 to AC not one opponent, there are fighter feats to attack spellcaster with, etc.) I have not read further than Feats, so my opinion may change. That said, it's only like to go up! |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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To anyone but an edition partisan, 3E and Pathfinder are the same game. Pathfinder is just a fine-tuned 3E variant.
If you have any experience with games outside D&D, you will probably consider conversions from 3E to Pathfinder and back pretty trivial, compared to say, GURPS to 3E conversions or even 3E to 4E conversions.
There are differences, but there are a lot more similarities.
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
To anyone but an edition partisan, 3E and Pathfinder are the same game. Pathfinder is just a fine-tuned 3E variant.
If you have any experience with games outside D&D, you will probably consider conversions from 3E to Pathfinder and back pretty trivial, compared to say, GURPS to 3E conversions or even 3E to 4E conversions.
There are differences, but there are a lot more similarities. |
I wouldn't go as far as saying "same game" only because I couldn't take my 3.5 character and play in a Pathfinder game (or my Pathfinder character and play in a 3.5 game). There's enough differences, between racial changes, class tweaks, skill improvements, and so on, to make that not really work well.
But... they're really damn close, and if you did bring a 3.5 character to a Pathfinder game, I'd wager it would take all of 10 minutes or so to do the "conversion."
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| varianor |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, a 3.5 base D&D character without mega splat-mods would be pretty comparable to a Pathfinder PC. They would just be a little less tweaked and have a few less character creation options. You're absolutely right that in 10 minutes you'd be all up to snuff. |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: |
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A base 3.5 character would need to fix racial adjustments, since all of those are changed. The stat mods associated with those racial adjustments would have a bunch of cascading effects as well.
Skills would need tweaked, sort of. Max skills is lower, but then there's the +3 bonus for class skills in which you have a rank. So mathematically it's a wash. We'd also have to deal with all the merged skills. A rogue, for example, is going to have more skill points to spend, with Disable Device and Open Locks being combined, Hide and Move Silently being combined, and Spot and Listen being combined. Finally, if the character is above first level, synergy bonuses need to be removed from the character sheet, since they don't exist in Pathfinder.
Depending on the character's level, the player may need to add feats, since a Pathfinder character gets a feat every-other level rather than every third level. Several key feats have changed, such as Power Attack, so any player who relied on such a feat for his/her build should determine if the feat is still wanted.
Class abilities all need to be looked at, since so many of those changed. And, of course, lots of classes have new abilities.
CMB and CMD need to be computed and written down somewhere.
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Again, it's not a hard conversion. I think a first level character could be completely rebuilt in under 10 minutes, and that includes time spent reading things like class abilities, feat descriptions, and so on. Heck, I think a 10th level character could probably be done in 15-20 minutes at most, and maybe even less than that. The base system is still the same, and all the key mechanics -- attacks, saves, skill checks, etc -- work the exact same way. The conversion is certainly easier than, using Wolfgang's example, taking a 3.5 character and converting to GURPS. But there are differences, and some of them (the half-orc's racial mods for example) can have a big impact on the character's overall build.
*
What can be done very easily, I think, is taking classes from splat books (warlock, scout, wu-jen, ninja, etc) and dropping them into a Pathfinder game. Some of those classes (samurai comes to mind) will be a bit underpowered, but it's certainly playable out of the box.
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Zherog wrote: |
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CMB and CMD need to be computed and written down somewhere.
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Hi, its me again - the old 1st edition DM who doesn't understand 3rd edition acronyms... what are CMB and CMD? |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, ok, there are one or two new elements in Pathfinder, and Combat Manuever Bonus and Combat Defense Bonus are two of the three (the other one is clerical channeling).
CMB and CDB are replacements for the grappling subsystem in 3.5. It's a pretty modular replacement, and to me seems like an improvement.
And they are spelled out on the Pathfinder SRD.
EDIT: Better link for Combat Manuevers.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Actually, it goes a step better than being the replacement for grappling. It's the mechanic used for all of the "combat maneuvers" such as grappling, trip, disarm, and so on. So instead of each of those things having their own, slightly different each time, mechanic they all run off the same rules set. And that rule set is more streamlined than the previous, so not only is it modular and consistent, it's also a fairly simple piece of math.
I think it's fairly clear and concise, to the point where I've given serious consideration to porting it into my 3.5 game.
edit: also, sorry about the acronyms, Amy. When I first saw somebody use CMB and CMD, I asked the exact same question you did, because I hadn't paid much attention to the Beta. I probably should've considered that and made my post clearer.
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the explanations. I'm not really happy with 3.5's rules for grappling, so I will definately be looking into porting these rules into my game. |
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| marcr |
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Or just switch over to Pathfinder 
Come on ... you know you want to ... 
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: I really do like the suggestion, but I'm scared... |
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| marcr wrote: |
Or just switch over to Pathfinder
Come on ... you know you want to ... |
Well, I am very tempted...
I like what I've seen so far; I like it a lot...
And I have purchased the softcover beta release book...
But I'm a little afraid that Pathfinder/Paizo will be squeezed out of existance by 4E/WotC. At least right now I'm playing a dead game that still has lots of followers and lots of printed material available. If I switch to Pathfinder and it dies, then I'm really out of luck when it comes to finding materials and players.
I'd be more confident if I saw Pathfinder being offered in more places. I wouldn't expect "Cloak and Dagger Comics" in Daytona Beach to carry it, since their store is about the size of a coat closet (besides, its in Daytona Beach, which is a true wilderness when it comes to FRPG's). However, "Coliseum of Comics" in the Sanford Mall had no Pathfinder stuff when I was there last week. Admittedly, Sanford is less than an hour's drive from Daytona, and so is still in the Shadow of the Great Daytona Wasteland, but they did have lots of 4E stuff. At least "Sci-Fi City" in Orlando carries Pathfinder - or at least they did six weeks ago when I was there last. But that's still just one out of three gaming stores; not a confidence-building set of numbers.  |
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| marcr |
| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I have a feeling Pathfinder and Paizo will be around and successful for a very long time. I would suggest you take the plunge - pathfinder is just too good to miss out on because of what "might" happen.
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| Andrelvis |
| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Myself, I'm not completely happy with what Pathfinder has changed, especially in regards to eliminating racial ability penalties, and making the characters too powerful. So I haven't done the shift. However, Pathfinder DOES have some very interesting features, which I have ported over.
Overall, I feel 3.5 is still better, and taking the good Pathfinder features and adding to it makes it excellent. |
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