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| Amy Carrier |
 Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: Is Your Wizard Overpowered? |
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Okay, from time to time over the years I've seen folks complain that the wizard was overpowered (and those complaints seemed to become more frequent after 3.x came out) but I was just over at the EnWorld.org forums and came across four different "wizards are bad" threads in the span of just a few minutes.
So my question is this: What's up with all these anti-wizard feelings?
I've been running my campaign since the late 1970's and I've never had any notable problem with the wizard class, either as PC's or NPC's. Have I just been lucky? What have I missed?
P.S. Just in case anyone might think that Wizard is my favorite class... Nope, I like being the DM too much to become a player. On those few occasions when I have joined someone else's campaign, I usually play a Dwarven Fighter. |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| IMO, the vast majority of these complaints boil down to "You get fireball! Wah!". Ignoring the fact that in 3E, fighters get Cleave and Great Cleave, which sometimes has a similar effect. |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: |
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I think there's three distinct camps, actually. Only two of them complain.
The first is the one varianor mentioned. This group, frankly, isn't well-educated and should probably be marginalized.
The second group is "normal." It's campaigns like yours, Amy, where there haven't been problems, for various reasons.
The third group is the optimization crowd. (Note I'm not attempting to be derogatory; I'd like to think I fall into this group, actually - but without the ticket to crazy train.  ) This group doesn't cast fireball or lightning bolt or, really, any other direct damage spell. At least most of the time. Instead, they're looking at spells like shapechange and polymorph that allow them to be anything; they're looking at tactics like "scry and die" where they rely on their magical ability to find the enemy and then teleport straight to him, rather than running the dungeon. When they get there, they cast "save or die" spells such as finger of death or cloudkill.
Even at low levels, this group relies on "virtual" save or die spells such as sleep and color spray to take out foes, rather than burning hands and magic missile.
Essentially, this crowd has determined that they can build a wizard to do one of two things: they can either reduce combat to a single die roll, or they can use poorly-written spells like polymorph and (at higher levels) shapechange to become a fighter that's better than the party's existing fighter.
Then this group also looks at the large volume of prestige classes that are out there for wizards. A great many of these offer truly awesome benefits without any real cost -- all a wizard really gives up by entering a prestige class is familiar abilities and bonus feats.
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm, I was sort of wondering if it might just be a small but vocal minority...
Actually, the one and only time I've ever heard an anti-wizard complaint in person was not long after the Cavalier class was presented in Dragon Magazine. One of my friends had a player in her game who had taken to the new class right away, and who self-identified just a wee bit too strongly with his character.
One day I happened to meet up with him by accident, and just to be friendly I made some small-talk about D&D. He suddenly blurted out “I’m going to start a game where magic user’s aren’t allowed, ‘cause NOTHING should be able to defeat a Cavalier!”
I think I mumbled something like “Okay, sounds like a good idea”, as I backed slowly away.
If there’s a Crazy Train for people who hate wizards, he’s the engineer. |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| John actually makes a really good point about the polymorphing wizard fighters with prestige classes. (Druids can achieve much the same result.) When you can turn into a purple worm and swallow your enemies, it's a little more impressive than swinging a sword four times. (Even if sometimes the sword-swinger can dish out average 50 points of damage on four iterative attacks, netting 200 hp to a dragon.) |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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This is why the variant that caps level advancement at 6th is so appealing to me.
Fireball and fly, sure. Teleport and polymorph? Nope.
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| fray |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would love to play in a E6 game!
I think it would rock! |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I could live without fly, and if fireball were the ultimate spell a wizard could achieve, I would probably enjoy that game far too much. |
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| varianor wrote: |
...
When you can turn into a purple worm and swallow your enemies, it's a little more impressive than swinging a sword four times.
... |
Strange, my players just don't do stuff like that very often. Maybe its because we're all old enough to remember the first Conan movie (where James Earl Jones polymorphs into a giant viper, but the only lasting result is that Arnie gets some neat snakeskin accessories out of the fight). |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Amy Carrier wrote: |
| varianor wrote: |
...
When you can turn into a purple worm and swallow your enemies, it's a little more impressive than swinging a sword four times.
... |
Strange, my players just don't do stuff like that very often. Maybe its because we're all old enough to remember the first Conan movie (where James Earl Jones polymorphs into a giant viper, but the only lasting result is that Arnie gets some neat snakeskin accessories out of the fight). |
In my opinion, most players don't do stuff like this. And that's why when you hear cries that "Wizards are overpowered! ZOMG!!!11!!one!! WTF?!?!?!eleven!!" most people look at the accuser with an odd glance and slowly back away.
However, just because most players don't do it doesn't mean it can't be done; it can, and because polymorph (and the related spells) are such a cluster [bleep] of brokeness, it's really easy to go from "using the spell in a useful manner" to "breaking the world."
As I said, I think most campaigns fall into my second category -- wizards can do some really powerful stuff at times, but they aren't the be all and end all in every encounter. Whether this is because the player knows about exploits and avoids them, hasn't found them yet, or some other reason doesn't really matter, I suppose.
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| jonroberts |
| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I had a player that used polymorph and figured out some ugly hacks. He played a tiefling wizard and used polymorph to turn himselt into a glabrezu in fights. It actually worked pretty well and the fighters were also a little power gamey (halfling cavalier on a medium sized dragon? Can you imagine that damage he did on a charge) that it panned out pretty well. I just threw equally nasty stuff back at them and everyone was happy.
Actually it led to the best death I've ever come across. They were in a situation they really couldn't escape from and needed an out. The tiefling turned himself into a bebelith so that he could use plane shift (there's a feat somewhere that allows you to use one supernatural power of your new form). They had to go somewhere they would be guarranteed of being safe, so he planeshifted to Celestia. Unsurprisingly, the bebelith was instantly vapourised by the many wards that stop demons just turning up in heaven.... He knew that, so it was a selfless act to rescue the rest of the party - and a tactic that I absolutely approved of, but would never have expected.
I think that there are many ways to abuse wizards, and more certainly than fighters. I think that it's only an issue when there's an imbalance between the players. If someone feels that another player is hogging the game and can deal with things on their own then there's a problem. However if everyone creates equally overpowered characters then it really just means the DM has to throw more exotic stuff at them. Anti-magic fields, anti-magic rays, rogues with wands of dispel magic. Your polymorphing wizard will look like an idiot when someone hits them with those, but your fighter will just carry straight on. And at high levels, any enemy worth their salt should be opening with dispel magic, or even better sitting in an unhallowed site with a dispel magic effect keyed to hit anyone they don't like. Obviously if the players don't use wizards like that then there's no need to go overboard, but the paper-scissors-stone of the 3.5 magic system can be a fun tactical game in and of itself. |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| jonroberts wrote: |
| I think that there are many ways to abuse wizards, and more certainly than fighters. I think that it's only an issue when there's an imbalance between the players. If someone feels that another player is hogging the game and can deal with things on their own then there's a problem. However if everyone creates equally overpowered characters then it really just means the DM has to throw more exotic stuff at them. |
Exactly. The internet, of course, makes the problem a bit worse. Now a player can go around to various message boards and read about the various ways to "break" a wizard (or cleric or druid or rogue or...). If the rest of the group (including the GM) is unprepared for it, things will get ugly. And as you said, there's definitely more ways to cheese out a caster than a fighter.
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, the internet is a place where GM's can do their home work and surprise the flip out of his players too! That street goes both ways.
Now back to the origin of this thread. I think a "Waaah! {set class} is broken, boohoo" complaints can happen with any class really. In my experience this happens because a player is stronger than the others in the group, not because one class is particularly better than the rest.
The old phrase "tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools" comes to mind, I think it can be abstractly applied here. |
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: |
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It also implies that the GM isn't monitoring the spells the wizard is gaining and adding to his spellbook. Sure, when I've got carte blanche to just spin up whatever spells strike my whimsy? Yeah, you end up with some pretty wierd stuff.
I've had it where I picked half the starting spells, where the wizard's player picks 20 spells and he can only choose spells from that list as he levels, where the list of spells he can select from at 1st level is determined by a Diplomacy check--representing how effectively the mage worked within his guild during his apprenticeship.
I also make NPCs guard their spells with a jealous fervor. Why why why would you trade spells with someone? Spells represent power, they represent research and hard work and hours spent analyzing the magic. And you're going to take that power and just swap it for the ability to create a floating disk or hut or an acid arrow? No way, Lunchpail. How about I just kill you and take your book, and then I have less competition in the wizarding world *and* I get your spells. I should probably eat your heart, just to be on the safe side.
Wizards should be paranoid and strange and angry. The rest of their peers is very likely out there hunting for them, to kill them and add their arcane casting distinctiveness to their own. The only person who was probably kind to them was their master, and he kicked them out the door at 1st level into the cold cruel world with 5 spells and a bathrobe. (BTW, why does that master so rarely appear in most campaigns? You ask every wizard's player who their character's master was and what he's doing now, and I bet 75% give you a blank look. "He had a master?") Adventuring parties? Ha! These are but clouds of meat and metal the wizard surrounds himself with in order to soak that ambush's initial wave. You just ask him, and if you're wondering if he's going to make you a zombie when you die? Yeah, the answer's yes-- zombies don't need pay or food, and that leaves more gold for spell research. Those components don't buy themselves!
-Ben.
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| terraleon |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Zherog wrote: |
| Then this group also looks at the large volume of prestige classes that are out there for wizards. A great many of these offer truly awesome benefits without any real cost -- all a wizard really gives up by entering a prestige class is familiar abilities and bonus feats. |
I'm actually ok with the shapechanging and the attempted "save or die" spells...
but this last part grates on me, and I know this will sound misdirected, but I blame the DM.
Hear me out.
Prestige classes were meant to be organizations, secret societies, graduates of a specific dojo, or members of a particular order. You're not supposed to just wake up one day and say, "Hey, you know, I'd never thought of that before...I guess I really can just teleport through the wounds of others and make people explode!" When someone shows up to the table with a double or triple prestige class combination, I just shake my head. There are very few exceptions where that should make sense, but you generally don't leave an exclusive organization to go join another one-- and if you do, the organization you left is probably going to hunt you for a traitor when they discover your exodus.
A lot of the power creep in OGL/3.5 can be managed when the GM keeps a proper rein on the prestige classes he permits and actively exercises the organizations behind them. You want to be a member of the Circle of Sequestered Magics because it gives you wicked kewl powerz? That's fine, but you can bet I'm going to be running you down the Circle's honeydew list of tasks.
PrCs mean establishing a relationship, and with the relationship comes responsibilities and obligations. When you properly execute this through the plotline then Prestige Classes take their rightful place.
That's just me, I can be vocal about this, but I find the crazy proliferation and random insertion of PrCs to be the root cause of a lot of GM headaches.
-Ben.
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