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	<title>Comments on: Howling Tower: The Tongue-Tied Bard</title>
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	<description>Monsters and Magic for D&#38;D Gamers</description>
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		<title>By: Daniel S.</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36487</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[+1 John the P. re: skills as modified attribute checks.

I love skills because they provide nuanced story control tied to the wargaming part of the game. In your case about the fighter floating on the log; there are several approaches that the fighter could take. Knowing padding or canoeing (for example) is one approach to the problem. A swim check is another, while a raw strength check provides a third. Each is a different nuance on the solution. &quot;You wrap yourself around the log and propel yourself to shore with mighty breast strokes&quot; vs. &quot;your mad kicking somehow moves you out of the main current and you float safely to shore.&quot; Obviously a knowledge of astronomy isn&#039;t going to help here, which is a good thing and helps build the back story of the pc into the encounter itself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>+1 John the P. re: skills as modified attribute checks.</p>
<p>I love skills because they provide nuanced story control tied to the wargaming part of the game. In your case about the fighter floating on the log; there are several approaches that the fighter could take. Knowing padding or canoeing (for example) is one approach to the problem. A swim check is another, while a raw strength check provides a third. Each is a different nuance on the solution. &#8220;You wrap yourself around the log and propel yourself to shore with mighty breast strokes&#8221; vs. &#8220;your mad kicking somehow moves you out of the main current and you float safely to shore.&#8221; Obviously a knowledge of astronomy isn&#8217;t going to help here, which is a good thing and helps build the back story of the pc into the encounter itself.</p>
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		<title>By: The Bull</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36468</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 21:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36468</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah the eternal question are skills useful or not. Well for me this is simply a matter of personal taste. Some love to got into details other like to stay at the basics. What your and your group like is what matters - nothing else.
Best is to build or use a modular-system which allows you to swap from one level of detail to another like zooming in or out and then go with the situation.

I personally love to go into details and so we developed a very detailed skill-system but we still use from time to time a less detailed version.

I never liked the idea of classes and their exclusion of certain skills for others. So in our system each one knows EACH SKILL on some basic level, depending on his attributes - even if he never used them in life before the situation arises where he must use it. You can say each one may be more talented in one or other skill but each one can use any skill.
When your character knows rowing he gains a raise to his skill of paddling, simply because he knows how to behave on water. So his paddling skill will be higher than the one of the Mountainman who paddles for the first time - even when their basic skill in paddling will be the same.
Ah I just love when things work smoothly and players have the liberty to do what they want to do without getting crushed to death with tons of rules.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah the eternal question are skills useful or not. Well for me this is simply a matter of personal taste. Some love to got into details other like to stay at the basics. What your and your group like is what matters &#8211; nothing else.<br />
Best is to build or use a modular-system which allows you to swap from one level of detail to another like zooming in or out and then go with the situation.</p>
<p>I personally love to go into details and so we developed a very detailed skill-system but we still use from time to time a less detailed version.</p>
<p>I never liked the idea of classes and their exclusion of certain skills for others. So in our system each one knows EACH SKILL on some basic level, depending on his attributes &#8211; even if he never used them in life before the situation arises where he must use it. You can say each one may be more talented in one or other skill but each one can use any skill.<br />
When your character knows rowing he gains a raise to his skill of paddling, simply because he knows how to behave on water. So his paddling skill will be higher than the one of the Mountainman who paddles for the first time &#8211; even when their basic skill in paddling will be the same.<br />
Ah I just love when things work smoothly and players have the liberty to do what they want to do without getting crushed to death with tons of rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Carrier</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36421</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Carrier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm, complex question.  

A while back someone wrote that players in &quot;the olden days&quot; would look at the ceiling and engage their imaginations when confronted with a non-combat situation, but ever since 3E just the opposite happens.  Now players look down at their character sheets, checking their laundry list of skills to see if they have an answer.  Once it was pointed out in the forum, it only took until my next game for me to confirm that it was true.

For players (and GM&#039;s) who aren&#039;t good at thinking outside the box, this might be a comforting way to play.  However, I think most RPG players are pretty happy to get outside the box - that&#039;s why we favor RPG&#039;s over Monopoly and Risk.

So I guess I&#039;m clever enough to see that there is need for improvement, but not clever enough to actually bring about that improvement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, complex question.  </p>
<p>A while back someone wrote that players in &#8220;the olden days&#8221; would look at the ceiling and engage their imaginations when confronted with a non-combat situation, but ever since 3E just the opposite happens.  Now players look down at their character sheets, checking their laundry list of skills to see if they have an answer.  Once it was pointed out in the forum, it only took until my next game for me to confirm that it was true.</p>
<p>For players (and GM&#8217;s) who aren&#8217;t good at thinking outside the box, this might be a comforting way to play.  However, I think most RPG players are pretty happy to get outside the box &#8211; that&#8217;s why we favor RPG&#8217;s over Monopoly and Risk.</p>
<p>So I guess I&#8217;m clever enough to see that there is need for improvement, but not clever enough to actually bring about that improvement.</p>
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		<title>By: John The Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36399</link>
		<dc:creator>John The Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 06:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I forgot to mention, 

Personally, I prefer to use skills as I described in my first paragraph. However, skill checks are not always required or appropriate. 

Yes, it does come down to a judgement call by the DM. 

It will vary from challenge to challenge, game to game, with each story that is being told.

That is why it is important to understand the ideas and concepts behind the rule and its application. That way we make judgement calls as are appropriate to the setting, game, and inspirational sources in each instance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to mention, </p>
<p>Personally, I prefer to use skills as I described in my first paragraph. However, skill checks are not always required or appropriate. </p>
<p>Yes, it does come down to a judgement call by the DM. </p>
<p>It will vary from challenge to challenge, game to game, with each story that is being told.</p>
<p>That is why it is important to understand the ideas and concepts behind the rule and its application. That way we make judgement calls as are appropriate to the setting, game, and inspirational sources in each instance.</p>
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		<title>By: John The Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36398</link>
		<dc:creator>John The Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 06:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36398</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was given to understand that all skill checks were in essence ability checks with modifiers. Hence, the absence of a skill did not forbid the attempt. Any fool with arms and legs can try to climb a mountain (dexterity check). Putting points into the climb skill just means that you stand a better chance of making it to the top. 

On the subject of balance:
Balance is there to keep the game playable and fun, not to limit the creativity of the players. If gamers find a loophole that solves almost every encounter, the game looses challenge and ceases to be fun (see &quot;couter monkey squirt gun wars&quot; on youtube for example). However, you can work around loopholes without limiting player options. If they make a poison, don&#039;t limit how often they can use it. Make an antidote. You get the idea.

I do agree that RPGs are an exercise in systemizing chaos. That is why it is important to understand the ideas behind the rules. Don&#039;t just memorize lists of rules. Try to know why they were put into place, so that you will understand when they should be applied.

Each edition of d&amp;d has wrestles with new rules and game mechanics, each with valid reasoning and ideas behind new changes or additions. From Ghostwalk&#039;s option of playing your character after death, to 4th edition&#039;s application of at will spell powers that kept mages in the game the whole time.

My brother tends to think that the rules of any RPG represent the physics of that world, based upon inspirational literature. This leads to the conclusion as is stated in both d&amp;d 3.5 and PFDRPG: Use the rules that are appropriate for the stories you are trying to tell. Use what works for you and leave the rest. If your stories say that all mages know a limited number of spells and cast them from memory, then use the sorcerer class and eschew wizards.

Never forget that it is the gamers who play that make any game work, not the developers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was given to understand that all skill checks were in essence ability checks with modifiers. Hence, the absence of a skill did not forbid the attempt. Any fool with arms and legs can try to climb a mountain (dexterity check). Putting points into the climb skill just means that you stand a better chance of making it to the top. </p>
<p>On the subject of balance:<br />
Balance is there to keep the game playable and fun, not to limit the creativity of the players. If gamers find a loophole that solves almost every encounter, the game looses challenge and ceases to be fun (see &#8220;couter monkey squirt gun wars&#8221; on youtube for example). However, you can work around loopholes without limiting player options. If they make a poison, don&#8217;t limit how often they can use it. Make an antidote. You get the idea.</p>
<p>I do agree that RPGs are an exercise in systemizing chaos. That is why it is important to understand the ideas behind the rules. Don&#8217;t just memorize lists of rules. Try to know why they were put into place, so that you will understand when they should be applied.</p>
<p>Each edition of d&amp;d has wrestles with new rules and game mechanics, each with valid reasoning and ideas behind new changes or additions. From Ghostwalk&#8217;s option of playing your character after death, to 4th edition&#8217;s application of at will spell powers that kept mages in the game the whole time.</p>
<p>My brother tends to think that the rules of any RPG represent the physics of that world, based upon inspirational literature. This leads to the conclusion as is stated in both d&amp;d 3.5 and PFDRPG: Use the rules that are appropriate for the stories you are trying to tell. Use what works for you and leave the rest. If your stories say that all mages know a limited number of spells and cast them from memory, then use the sorcerer class and eschew wizards.</p>
<p>Never forget that it is the gamers who play that make any game work, not the developers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jackdaw</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36395</link>
		<dc:creator>Jackdaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 21:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36395</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With my group of players I like the skill set to stem from the character and the character&#039;s background. A character from a barren desert isn&#039;t going to know how to paddle a canoe but he may well know how to find water. If the player can make a reasoned argument and justify the use of a particular skill based on our previous knowledge of the character I think it&#039;s a good thing to allow it. It gets the player&#039;s thinking and role playing. I have a player with a character that has herbalism as a skill. The player has taken the time to research both the mythological and real world applications of a variety of herbs. As a result  we have extended the use of the skill so it benefits the rest of his skills. Small bonuses to spells, saving throws and the like. These are relatively minor but they reward the effort and make for good roleplaying.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With my group of players I like the skill set to stem from the character and the character&#8217;s background. A character from a barren desert isn&#8217;t going to know how to paddle a canoe but he may well know how to find water. If the player can make a reasoned argument and justify the use of a particular skill based on our previous knowledge of the character I think it&#8217;s a good thing to allow it. It gets the player&#8217;s thinking and role playing. I have a player with a character that has herbalism as a skill. The player has taken the time to research both the mythological and real world applications of a variety of herbs. As a result  we have extended the use of the skill so it benefits the rest of his skills. Small bonuses to spells, saving throws and the like. These are relatively minor but they reward the effort and make for good roleplaying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ulf Schyldt</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36394</link>
		<dc:creator>Ulf Schyldt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36394</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Skills are neither necessary or a problem, as long as you play the game &quot;right&quot;. And with &quot;right&quot; in this context I mean that both the DM and the players will give each other some latitude, cooperate constructively - you know what I mean... 

So where does the need come from? For certainly there are other games were they feel necessary, were there would be no game without rules for everything. 

One widespread theory seems to be that they got invented, little by little, and once there it was impossible to un-invent them, and them we were stuck with them and somehow they limited our way of thinking. But that is only true if you have a strict D&amp;D-centric perspective. 

I grew up in Sweden and started out on a translation of &quot;Basic Roleplaying&quot;. Basic Roleplaying has skills. Lots of skills. (And for good measure, the Swedish publisher added even more skills in later expansions...)

Yet I know that in those first glorious years we weren&#039;t so encumbered by these rules that we couldn&#039;t let our imagination run free. In fact both me and some of my friends made up our own games when we needed to - some using skills, some don&#039;t. We certainly didn&#039;t depend on them to much. 

After a few years we had tried a lot of other published games as well - not least D&amp;D which we stuck with for years to come. And THEN we had that problem, more and more frequently no matter whether it was about skills (if the game had those) or some other mechanic. 

So I think there are other factors as well. Many games published expansions, additional rulesets - and somehow many games, more or less at the same time, started to become more and more streamlined, resistance became more and more &quot;level appropriate&quot; and the notion of balance appeared. 

Now, if you expect balance between the players and their opposition - then you wouldn&#039;t NEED to think up super-exceptional deeds to survive. That&#039;s what balance is! Those crazy stunts might even be considered upsetting the balance - they might take a perfectly balanced encounter and turn it into a stroll in the park. 

I think the expectation of balance, was the back door were rules-lawyering in general crept in. Before that, if you came up with a good idea or if you found a loop hole to exploit - good for you! (But don&#039;t expect the loop hole to work again...)  

And when it was in, it stayed in. We guarded our treasured capabilities, because they were now part of the resource management, like spells per day or charges or stuff like that. It became part of the infrastructure of the game. We weren&#039;t relaxed about it anymore. 

So - no, you don&#039;t need skills. (Unless you want to use their mechanic in a certain kind of game.) There&#039;s a lot of things you don&#039;t need. Preconceptions about a balanced setting is certainly one of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skills are neither necessary or a problem, as long as you play the game &#8220;right&#8221;. And with &#8220;right&#8221; in this context I mean that both the DM and the players will give each other some latitude, cooperate constructively &#8211; you know what I mean&#8230; </p>
<p>So where does the need come from? For certainly there are other games were they feel necessary, were there would be no game without rules for everything. </p>
<p>One widespread theory seems to be that they got invented, little by little, and once there it was impossible to un-invent them, and them we were stuck with them and somehow they limited our way of thinking. But that is only true if you have a strict D&amp;D-centric perspective. </p>
<p>I grew up in Sweden and started out on a translation of &#8220;Basic Roleplaying&#8221;. Basic Roleplaying has skills. Lots of skills. (And for good measure, the Swedish publisher added even more skills in later expansions&#8230;)</p>
<p>Yet I know that in those first glorious years we weren&#8217;t so encumbered by these rules that we couldn&#8217;t let our imagination run free. In fact both me and some of my friends made up our own games when we needed to &#8211; some using skills, some don&#8217;t. We certainly didn&#8217;t depend on them to much. </p>
<p>After a few years we had tried a lot of other published games as well &#8211; not least D&amp;D which we stuck with for years to come. And THEN we had that problem, more and more frequently no matter whether it was about skills (if the game had those) or some other mechanic. </p>
<p>So I think there are other factors as well. Many games published expansions, additional rulesets &#8211; and somehow many games, more or less at the same time, started to become more and more streamlined, resistance became more and more &#8220;level appropriate&#8221; and the notion of balance appeared. </p>
<p>Now, if you expect balance between the players and their opposition &#8211; then you wouldn&#8217;t NEED to think up super-exceptional deeds to survive. That&#8217;s what balance is! Those crazy stunts might even be considered upsetting the balance &#8211; they might take a perfectly balanced encounter and turn it into a stroll in the park. </p>
<p>I think the expectation of balance, was the back door were rules-lawyering in general crept in. Before that, if you came up with a good idea or if you found a loop hole to exploit &#8211; good for you! (But don&#8217;t expect the loop hole to work again&#8230;)  </p>
<p>And when it was in, it stayed in. We guarded our treasured capabilities, because they were now part of the resource management, like spells per day or charges or stuff like that. It became part of the infrastructure of the game. We weren&#8217;t relaxed about it anymore. </p>
<p>So &#8211; no, you don&#8217;t need skills. (Unless you want to use their mechanic in a certain kind of game.) There&#8217;s a lot of things you don&#8217;t need. Preconceptions about a balanced setting is certainly one of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Ned</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page13426.php#comment-36388</link>
		<dc:creator>Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 06:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=13426#comment-36388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does &quot;throwing a knife&quot; and &quot;healing with a knife&quot; REALLY need to be two different skills? I&#039;m sure if both were trained skills that there would be SOME probability of healing a person by throwing a knife at him.
Now if only we had an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of knives...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does &#8220;throwing a knife&#8221; and &#8220;healing with a knife&#8221; REALLY need to be two different skills? I&#8217;m sure if both were trained skills that there would be SOME probability of healing a person by throwing a knife at him.<br />
Now if only we had an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of knives&#8230;</p>
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