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	<title>Comments on: Action: Failure</title>
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	<description>Monsters and Magic for D&#38;D Gamers</description>
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		<title>By: Ben.</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6320</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Todd: Ah, delicious snark. I&#039;d respond by saying, yes, I&#039;m familiar with the concept of variable success in RPGs, but it&#039;s not discussed within the rules that detail 4E skill challenges-- in either the DMG or DMG2. Even some of the development blogs have talked about a linked series of complexity 1 SCs, rather than longer challenges with scenes. I think it adds a lot of utility, exposing the option to anyone who hasn&#039;t been gaming for 10+ years, and I believe that&#039;s worthwhile.

@Jake: I agree, and in fact, that&#039;s what I&#039;ve used when designing similar challenges for other scenarios. The flowchart works well as a reference, but I find trying to pack all the descriptive text and options into the chart tends to make it too busy. You can use this to build a &quot;rule of three&quot; when dealing with clues-- each clue or scene really contains three pointers: one to itself, two others which direct the characters to other scenes. This doesn&#039;t work for all scenarios, but definitely adds a lot of flexibility to investigations.

-Ben.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Todd: Ah, delicious snark. I&#8217;d respond by saying, yes, I&#8217;m familiar with the concept of variable success in RPGs, but it&#8217;s not discussed within the rules that detail 4E skill challenges&#8211; in either the DMG or DMG2. Even some of the development blogs have talked about a linked series of complexity 1 SCs, rather than longer challenges with scenes. I think it adds a lot of utility, exposing the option to anyone who hasn&#8217;t been gaming for 10+ years, and I believe that&#8217;s worthwhile.</p>
<p>@Jake: I agree, and in fact, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve used when designing similar challenges for other scenarios. The flowchart works well as a reference, but I find trying to pack all the descriptive text and options into the chart tends to make it too busy. You can use this to build a &#8220;rule of three&#8221; when dealing with clues&#8211; each clue or scene really contains three pointers: one to itself, two others which direct the characters to other scenes. This doesn&#8217;t work for all scenarios, but definitely adds a lot of flexibility to investigations.</p>
<p>-Ben.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake Zim</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6264</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Zim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:53:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Something that I was thinking of while reading through the multi-scened Skill Challenge is that you could almost make a flow chart of possibilities.  A failure leads to a different scene than the success, but you still continue on a path that could lead to an overall success.  You could simply make it take 2 more steps after the failure to get to where a success would have taken you straight to.  The possibilities are mind-boggling and endless.  
You may completely dismiss this as you wish.  I&#039;ve always enjoyed multiple paths that someone could take to get to the same outcome.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something that I was thinking of while reading through the multi-scened Skill Challenge is that you could almost make a flow chart of possibilities.  A failure leads to a different scene than the success, but you still continue on a path that could lead to an overall success.  You could simply make it take 2 more steps after the failure to get to where a success would have taken you straight to.  The possibilities are mind-boggling and endless.<br />
You may completely dismiss this as you wish.  I&#8217;ve always enjoyed multiple paths that someone could take to get to the same outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6258</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6258</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, there&#039;s always someone looking to piss in the pot. Welcome to the comments section Todd. Try to be less of a dick.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, there&#8217;s always someone looking to piss in the pot. Welcome to the comments section Todd. Try to be less of a dick.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6256</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6256</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Awesome, you&#039;ve discovered variable yeild success.  Welcome to the 90s.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome, you&#8217;ve discovered variable yeild success.  Welcome to the 90s.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben.</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6220</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@vermonter: my concern with only providing a level+1 encounter is overall challenge. Personally, if they fail the SC then I feel the group should be facing something nearly overwhelming, but with the possibility for success. A low level encounter tends to be a speed bump in my experience, and failure needs consequences-- in this case we&#039;re talking in the form of surges, powers, and consumables.

I understand your idea of making the two encounters an equal combined total, or the concern that groups might fail simply to grab the additional xp, but I think a story reward should usually accompany success. That, combined with the RP benefits of success (in this case, the positive relationship, the fact that no NPCs die, the possible relationships established with those troops who assist the PCs) should outweigh the pure numerical benefit of a few more brutes on the battlemat... Perhaps that ought to be the subject of the next article. :)

I don&#039;t require everyone to participate, but I do solicit everyone to keep them involved-- the choice to do nothing is still a choice, and sometimes it&#039;s the best choice a character can make. I don&#039;t think someone should be penalized for playing a particular character, especially if they&#039;re savvy enough to realize when an action for the sake of acting is inappropriate. I&#039;m not saying you suggest this, I have seen it happen many times, though and I think it&#039;s the source of a lot of irritation players can have with SCs. Of course someone needs to act unless the group decides they would rather not participate, but then that&#039;s also an active choice.

@tedronai I&#039;m not sure how I feel about xp for a failed SC, but yes, given we&#039;re looking at partial success, then partial xp is probably a reasonable consideration. I think I probably considered the additional difficulty in the following combat the &quot;partial&quot; xp. ;) However if you look at the combined total slightly differently, then, yes partial xp makes sense. a big part of this comes down to how you structure you xp awards, if you use them.

-Ben.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@vermonter: my concern with only providing a level+1 encounter is overall challenge. Personally, if they fail the SC then I feel the group should be facing something nearly overwhelming, but with the possibility for success. A low level encounter tends to be a speed bump in my experience, and failure needs consequences&#8211; in this case we&#8217;re talking in the form of surges, powers, and consumables.</p>
<p>I understand your idea of making the two encounters an equal combined total, or the concern that groups might fail simply to grab the additional xp, but I think a story reward should usually accompany success. That, combined with the RP benefits of success (in this case, the positive relationship, the fact that no NPCs die, the possible relationships established with those troops who assist the PCs) should outweigh the pure numerical benefit of a few more brutes on the battlemat&#8230; Perhaps that ought to be the subject of the next article. <img src='http://www.koboldpress.com/k/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t require everyone to participate, but I do solicit everyone to keep them involved&#8211; the choice to do nothing is still a choice, and sometimes it&#8217;s the best choice a character can make. I don&#8217;t think someone should be penalized for playing a particular character, especially if they&#8217;re savvy enough to realize when an action for the sake of acting is inappropriate. I&#8217;m not saying you suggest this, I have seen it happen many times, though and I think it&#8217;s the source of a lot of irritation players can have with SCs. Of course someone needs to act unless the group decides they would rather not participate, but then that&#8217;s also an active choice.</p>
<p>@tedronai I&#8217;m not sure how I feel about xp for a failed SC, but yes, given we&#8217;re looking at partial success, then partial xp is probably a reasonable consideration. I think I probably considered the additional difficulty in the following combat the &#8220;partial&#8221; xp. <img src='http://www.koboldpress.com/k/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  However if you look at the combined total slightly differently, then, yes partial xp makes sense. a big part of this comes down to how you structure you xp awards, if you use them.</p>
<p>-Ben.</p>
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		<title>By: Vermonter</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6202</link>
		<dc:creator>Vermonter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6202</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree that you need to give some story explanation to the players so that they understand how their performance impacted a subsequent encounter.  This is particularly important if you structure your skill challenge narrative in such a way that the party may not be sure whether a particular event was a total success or failure.

I recommend giving a set amount of experience points for the skill challenge and subsequent encounter(s) combined.  In this way if the skill challenge lets you get a level+1 encounter instead of level+4, the difference in those two amounts is the experience for success at the skill challenge.

One question I have is whether you would expect all players to take an action in every scene.  That would be the expectation of most folks in my group, but does yield a lot of results to parse and describe.  We don&#039;t have a lot of &#039;aid another&#039; actions in my groups.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that you need to give some story explanation to the players so that they understand how their performance impacted a subsequent encounter.  This is particularly important if you structure your skill challenge narrative in such a way that the party may not be sure whether a particular event was a total success or failure.</p>
<p>I recommend giving a set amount of experience points for the skill challenge and subsequent encounter(s) combined.  In this way if the skill challenge lets you get a level+1 encounter instead of level+4, the difference in those two amounts is the experience for success at the skill challenge.</p>
<p>One question I have is whether you would expect all players to take an action in every scene.  That would be the expectation of most folks in my group, but does yield a lot of results to parse and describe.  We don&#8217;t have a lot of &#8216;aid another&#8217; actions in my groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: afbeer</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6141</link>
		<dc:creator>afbeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the normal rules for skill challenges the failed skill challenge results in disadvantages for the characters and the adventure continues.

For a skill challenge it is vital to describe.
Describe the NPC, environment, ...
Describe the result of each skill check.

Your idea of presenting scenes is tried and true.
These scenes give in a natural way additional describable detail.

@Rob &amp; Tedronai: I am used to getting full XP for a successful skill challenge and 1/2 XP for a failed skill challenge. I also encountered failed skill challenges where the XP not gained in the skill challenge manifested in additional foes in the harder combat encounter (failing the scouting.) Such that the total XP from both was equal no matter the outcome of the skill challenge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the normal rules for skill challenges the failed skill challenge results in disadvantages for the characters and the adventure continues.</p>
<p>For a skill challenge it is vital to describe.<br />
Describe the NPC, environment, &#8230;<br />
Describe the result of each skill check.</p>
<p>Your idea of presenting scenes is tried and true.<br />
These scenes give in a natural way additional describable detail.</p>
<p>@Rob &amp; Tedronai: I am used to getting full XP for a successful skill challenge and 1/2 XP for a failed skill challenge. I also encountered failed skill challenges where the XP not gained in the skill challenge manifested in additional foes in the harder combat encounter (failing the scouting.) Such that the total XP from both was equal no matter the outcome of the skill challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: Tedronai</title>
		<link>http://www.koboldpress.com/k/front-page5426.php#comment-6131</link>
		<dc:creator>Tedronai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/?p=5426#comment-6131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And frankly, they really should be getting xp for the skill challenge, itself (with partial xp for partial success), which should go a ways to alleviating such &#039;failure rewards&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And frankly, they really should be getting xp for the skill challenge, itself (with partial xp for partial success), which should go a ways to alleviating such &#8216;failure rewards&#8217;.</p>
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