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| [Suggestion] Future OD patronage project: The Great Beyond? |
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| Would you subscribe to a patron project involving The Great Beyond? |
| Maybe. I love planar adventures, but I'm not sold on a Pathfinder-specific project. |
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17% |
[ 13 ] |
| Maybe. I love Pathfinder, but the planes aren't a big thing for me. |
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13% |
[ 10 ] |
| No. Open Design should concentrate on humbler fare with a wider audience. |
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14% |
[ 11 ] |
| WOW! Pathfinder and The Great Beyond! Holy Shemeska, sign me up! |
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54% |
[ 40 ] |
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| Total Votes : 74 |
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| Wolfgang |
 Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4986
Location: The Mines
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There's no exact date yet, but I suppose October for outlines, launch in November if a lead designer is identified.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| ChristinaStiles |
| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| There's no exact date yet, but I suppose October for outlines, launch in November if a lead designer is identified. |
Ok. I'll be forwarding an outline in October, then. |
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| The Laughing Fiend |
| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010
Posts: 14
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Agreed, no reason it couldn't be you, Christina!
Chances are that this project will go to the patron/designer who puts together the best outline for it and submits it this fall.
Given the number of Open Design projects currently ongoing (including some not yet announced), there's no way that this project will start commissioning before October or November.
That said, I'd love to have some outlines for it to consider from likely lead designers by the end of September. |
Interesting. *ponder* |
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| Doomedpaladin |
| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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I feel dumb for asking, but what would a project outline look like? What might I reference to find out? I know english paper outlines, is there a particular difference?
Still a noob here, but learning is fun. 
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| Daigle |
| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Well, different projects could come up with different looking outlines, so I have never used the old Roman numeral clogged outlines from school when outlining an RPG project. First thing to do is think about the project and consider all the parts that need to go in there.
Pick up any RPG book near you and flip to the ToC. Each one of those chapters or sections would be a header for your outline. From that header you’d explain everything you want to put in that section giving rough examples to help get your idea across. Essentially when doing an outline you are presenting a clear idea of the book you want to see, then taking it apart section by section and telling the reader what goes where and what it’s going to be. You should also include word count for each section and make sure it all fits into the right number of pages. A rough estimation is 750 words per page, but that can vary depending on layout. A two page spread is about 1,500 words and a 64-page book can roll out to be 44,000. Allow for credits, ToC, index pages and stuff like that in your total page estimation.
Now, this is just the way I’ve done things, and I don’t know what everyone likes to see. That’s just how I break down a book idea. The real art comes with the pitch, which in this case will blend into the outline for sure. Successful pitching is its own animal. You have to choose the best words to convey your idea in a short space, and you’ve gotta do a good job of it lest you bore or annoy the reader (which usually ends up with them going on to the next pitch in their pile.) Everyone has their own approach to this, and even some of the best writers can’t nail a pitch every time. Practicing flavorful, information dense writing in a small word count certainly helps in this medium.
I’ll add more as things come to me…I need to get back to my project. |
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| Doomedpaladin |
| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Daigle wrote: |
| A rough estimation is 750 words per page, but that can vary depending on layout. A two page spread is about 1,500 words and a 64-page book can roll out to be 44,000. Allow for credits, ToC, index pages and stuff like that in your total page estimation. |
THAT is the thing I can never find information about. I know wordcount is important as I hear big numbers bandied about but no one ever really says what is appropriate per page/chapter/book. I always worry that I'm using up too much space and that my writing will result in tl;dr (too long; didn't read). I figured that using the ToC from other books would work as a guide for an outline, but those ToC's would really be the refined outlines for those books. With the expectation that it would get narrowed by the editing process anyway. Should I feel free to expand my outline a bit?
| Daigle wrote: |
Now, this is just the way I’ve done things, and I don’t know what everyone likes to see. That’s just how I break down a book idea. The real art comes with the pitch, which in this case will blend into the outline for sure. Successful pitching is its own animal. You have to choose the best words to convey your idea in a short space, and you’ve gotta do a good job of it lest you bore or annoy the reader (which usually ends up with them going on to the next pitch in their pile.) Everyone has their own approach to this, and even some of the best writers can’t nail a pitch every time. Practicing flavorful, information dense writing in a small word count certainly helps in this medium.
I’ll add more as things come to me…I need to get back to my project. |
I have the Kobold Guide to's, so hopefully a good potion of what I need to know about pitching (or at least pitching to Wolfgang) will be in them. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. I really appreciate it. It's this kind of support that makes the Open Design community such a pleasure to be a part of.
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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Location: The Mines
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To which I will add: Thank you Adam for reading my mind and typing up what I might have said, if I had Adam's clever idea of using a TOC to reverse engineer an outline.
Also, Open Design projects run around 850 words/page, though it varies by project.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Daigle |
| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Glad I was helpful.
For all I've learned in the last few years, I still feel really new at all this. However, most of what I've learned came from talking to folks about it (conventions, chat rooms, message boards, etc). Which is probably why I gravitated to Open Design as soon as I learned about it. |
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| Lord Snorkus |
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 04 Apr 2008
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Cool! I'm glad my suggestion has received so much favorable attention from so many freelancing luminaries! I am not a freelancer, merely a devotee with a passion for patron projects. Whatever you guys get going, I will definitely be up for chipping my hard-earned greenbacks into it. Some thoughts:
Heaven/Hell as the two poles of an adventure/suppliment would be good, but they have been done a LOT. Very biblical.
Keeping in the Nordic/Slavic tradition of Midgard, the Bifrost Bridge/Yggdrasil/Baba Yaga all spring to mind.
Maybe a quest to rescue the soul of a fallen warrior destined for Asgard but waylaid by the minions of Loki/Hel/Baba Yaga for some nefarious purpose?
I still would love to have Todd Stewart expand on the Great Beyond for a patron project, but it seems this isn't being received as well as I had thought. I love your work, Shemmy, keep plugging!
Anyway, I look forward to whatever anyone can come up with!  |
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| Doomedpaladin |
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Lord Snorkus wrote: |
| Heaven/Hell as the two poles of an adventure/suppliment would be good, but they have been done a LOT. Very biblical. |
What I've read of the Pathfinder "Great Beyond", which isn't much since I don't have the main book, the only real biblical flavor is the whole go-to-heaven-goodguys/go-to-hell-badguys (for eternity) thing. Asmodeus is a capital-G God in his own right and has a LOT more freedom than RL Satan. I get the impression from reading the PF supplemental books that Heaven/Hell/The Elemental Planes/The Abyss aren't as seperate as they were in 3rd. I get the feeling that it's sort of SpellJammer-ish. Where you just fly up to where you want to be and get jumped by whatever happens to be passing by.
Of course these are all assumptions, so if I'm wrong and it's set up a different way let me say that this is how I would like to see a Great Beyond adventure/supplement set up in the Midgard setting. Though I know that's ultimately the under the purview of the project's designer.
| Lord Snorkus wrote: |
Keeping in the Nordic/Slavic tradition of Midgard, the Bifrost Bridge/Yggdrasil/Baba Yaga all spring to mind.
Maybe a quest to rescue the soul of a fallen warrior destined for Asgard but waylaid by the minions of Loki/Hel/Baba Yaga for some nefarious purpose? |
A Midgard Great Beyond would need to be sufficently different from the Frozen Empires patron project currently going to stand (and sell) on it's own. So the fate of that warrior's soul would probably make for a good adventure within the book rather than the basis for the book itself.
Really, if a book was done on Midgard's Great Beyond, I'd like to know more of how Wolfgang envisions it or if he's comfortable with having it developed by the project's processes. What's the planar layout for your world sir? Ever thought about it?
I know the Shadow plane can be accessed through the Nifelheim Road by way of ritual, or by jumping down a nasty old well. That suggests that the planes (or that one anyhow) are more coterminious in Midgard than in other settings. Is there a tree in Margreeve that one might climb to get to the Astral or even "Heaven" a la' Jack and the Beanstalk?
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| Brine273 |
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| This sounds like a really great project. However, I would prefer to see it kept fairly setting neutral and more along the lines of Sunken Empires as far as content. I also like the idea of keeping to large themes like, The Planes: Heaven and Hell. This would then open this up for a series if it was well received for future titles like, The Planes: Order and Chaos, Fire and Water, Earth and Air, Shadow and Fey, or any other two planar arch types that would generally oppose each other. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4986
Location: The Mines
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| Lord Snorkus wrote: |
| I still would love to have Todd Stewart expand on the Great Beyond for a patron project, but it seems this isn't being received as well as I had thought. I love your work, Shemmy, keep plugging! |
Todd's done great planar work for Paizo and also some bits for KQ, but I don't know that he's actually been a patron on collaborative, community-driven design like this.
There's actually several other designers with more experience in that approach who might do just as well or better.... But rest assured that if it comes to the point where I'm ready to say "senior patrons, send me your planar book pitch", he'll probably make the guest author list.
That day will likely be late December or early January, when the current setting book is closing in on completion.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Lord Snorkus |
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 04 Apr 2008
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Location: Codfish Cape
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| Lord Snorkus wrote: |
| I still would love to have Todd Stewart expand on the Great Beyond for a patron project, but it seems this isn't being received as well as I had thought. I love your work, Shemmy, keep plugging! |
Todd's done great planar work for Paizo and also some bits for KQ, but I don't know that he's actually been a patron on collaborative, community-driven design like this.
There's actually several other designers with more experience in that approach who might do just as well or better.... But rest assured that if it comes to the point where I'm ready to say "senior patrons, send me your planar book pitch", he'll probably make the guest author list.
That day will likely be late December or early January, when the current setting book is closing in on completion. |
That's excellent news! Yeah, I understand the difficulties of involving the Great Beyond, or Todd in a project. I like Golarion, and I wanted to see some exploration of their plane structure, but I also understand that Paizo might want to keep that kinda 'in house' as it were. And a lot of OD patrons aren't Paizo-centric. One of the reasons I put a poll up at the start was to see where the mood was.
That being said, I would be more than happy as a second choice to see an exploration of the planes in a Zobeck/Midgard way. I think that any of the senior patrons would do a great job, and as a GM, I can always adjust the material to my needs. Count me in as a patron when the time comes! =) |
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| The Laughing Fiend |
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
Todd's done great planar work for Paizo and also some bits for KQ, but I don't know that he's actually been a patron on collaborative, community-driven design like this. |
I haven't, and I'm not well versed in how it all works. That said, I would happily contribute to something like what's being discussed, but not sure if I'll have the available time to take lead on a major project when it's a format that I don't have any experience in working on. Super interested nonetheless.
Something branching off of the Great Beyond I have a ton more ready to be written ideas obviously, but for any other cosmology I could toss around ideas that will take longer to develop but will branch out in other directions. |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4986
Location: The Mines
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Fair enough, and great to realize you are on the boards here!
The Zobeck cosmology is fairly simple compared to the Great Beyond, but it covers most of the big bases: Heaven, multiple Hells, Valhalla, the Styx, the Shadow Realm, the Fey Kingdoms, and a mechanical plane are all already canonical from various adventures and notes.
For now, too many things cooking to do this project justice, but it is a leading contender for 2011.
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