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Do You Prefer Exclusive/Limited Editions?

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I prefer the next Open Design project as a...

... very limited edition that is exclusive to patrons only.

[ 7 ]

... private edition that later patrons can still pick up at any time.

67%

[ 49 ]

... public edition that patrons gets some extra part, chapter, or exclusive content for.

10%

[ 8 ]

... public edition that is largely identical to the patron version. Maybe title page/note distinguishes them.

12%

[ 9 ]

Total Votes : 73

Author

Message

Wolfgang

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: Do You Prefer Exclusive/Limited Editions?

Patron

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1552
Location: The Mines

So, tell me whether you like patron projects to be limited runs or kept in print forever.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Kobold-in-Chief

friadoc

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 5

Now I'm torn, as I like the exclusivity of patronage, yet I still want a degree of inclusivity that will draw more patrons, thus does the artist better, as well as the patronage movement.

So, I picked the private print run that later patrons can pick up, however, I think adding a degree of content that enhances the product, but is not detrimental to later patrons, with respect to using of the product, could be a good idea, as well. Thus, those who signed up originally have a different enough of product to be a sign of pride for them to have sponsored, yet those who are interested in the product and what is released get a chance to see what they're missing.

It's a fine line to walk, though, as the patronage movement needs the exclusivity edge, as that is the nature of what patronage was, when an individual, or small cadre of individuals, put in a consignment it was meant for their own usage, but the modern market can backlash on that idea, to a degree, too.

But, I'm sensing my babble-on-endlessly power kicking in, so I'm gonna shut up, for now. Very Happy

avidreader514

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:04 pm Post subject: You Get What You Pay For

Patron

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 72
Location: montreal

...if you pay early, you should get exclusive content and, of course, all the creative input Wolfgang can tolerate [grin]. That's being a patron.

...if you pay late, you should pay more, enabling Open Design to do bigger and better things in the future. That's being a customer.

Personally, I'm fine with the idea of all prior OD publications being made available to customers. Other people having copies of the work doesn't dilute my sense of ownership of the work one whit.

Aberzanzorax

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Available always to everyone, but must be a patron

Patron

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 153

I like the idea of needing to be a current patron in order to buy older products...and not "retiring" those older products to any current patron.

I think this is good for a number of reasons, but the most important is that I think this will help future products garner patrons more quickly as there will be more and more "past" projects added to the "past" project library. (e.g. I think I helpd at least two people find here from posts on Nick Logue's site--Endzeitgeist and another I think. They became patrons of Zobek in order to buy Blood of the Gorgon...and they're reportedly happy they did both things.)

I joined Gorgon because I wanted 6 Arabian Nights and Empire, and was hugely pleased with Blood of the Gorgon. Then once having been a patron, I wanted to do it again, so I'm in on Zobek. I'll be in on the next third edition project as well...this time from the outset likely.

I don't like the idea of exclusivity at all (no surprise there to anyone who's reading the Steam and Brass thread) for a number of reasons. I would be fine with new "customers" rather than patrons paying more. I'd also be fine with a different cover...maybe even a boring monochromatic or B&W cover to differentiate.

Above all, I see this as a worthwhile project, but I think the meaning of patron is largely in the opportunity to create and inform the creation of the material from choosing the theme through the crunch and fluff input on a more frequent basis.

Honestly, I became a "patron" of Zobek after it was already going to editing. Am I a true patron? Not really...I'm more of a customer. It was going to happen without me and I didn't have an experience much different from buying an existing product (such as Empire).

Patronage does have its own value intrinsically, (the creative input and pride). It's hard to hit new people with more cost, less content, no choice in the theme of the project (a given), and no part in the creative process. Missing just a few of these is reason enough to be a patron. Hitting someone with all of them will truly discourage additional sales (which the poll does not seem to show people want).

Finally, I think there is value for later patrons who get in on the "club" of open gaming, such as myself, to be able to see the evolution of the phenomenon, which requires being able to buy what has gone before.

Chris Mortika

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 1

If I understand correctly, the earliest patrons bought into the Open Design work as patrons, that is, commissioning Wolfgang to write something according to his own tastes, but their specifications.

Again, if I understand correctly, those projects were intended to be more or less private commissions, unavailable to patrons of future projects.

So, if those projects are made available to patrons of the current project, I think those early patrons would have the right to cry foul. They put their money down then, and committed themselves to making sure the commission happened. I didn't.

This isn't a question of copyright --I think Wolfgang has a legal right to hand copies of Empire of the Ghouls out as Gen Con freebies.

And make no mistake, I would love to get ahold of the earliest Open Design project. But I wasn't a patron of that commission. And I don't think being a patron of this commission ought to allow me to presume rights to any earlier works.

Watcher

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 505

I won't speak to the past, or haggle with anybody about who feels who is owed what, because they were promised something, sometime before I arrived..

This medium has no value when it is hoarded, except in the perception of the one doing the hoarding. To me it amounts to locking poetry in a safe deposit box.

As I mentioned in another thread, the problem here is unlike a rare baseball card or painting.. you can't photocopy or photograph this medium and have it retain any value. The power is in the written word. Once the words are known...

While some might consider it a shame to allow just anybody to purchase these projects, I think its a shame to bury them.

I won't advocate complete public access to the Projects.. I have voted that anybody who becomes a Patron should henceforth be allowed to purchase other Projects.

My thinking is that once you contribute your wealth to the Open Design Family, we don't keep the doors locked. You've made a Project come to life when you become a Patron, by buying older Projects you're still helping new ones see the light of day.

And you're making Open Design take another step towards immortality. Better that than the grave of relative obscurity.

Stormborn

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 20

As a patron on the current Zobek project I too came to it late, mainly because I was looking to purchase the product. Personally I have no problems, and would have no problems, if at some future point, or even after publication, Wolfgang said "Other people can still buy this, but maybe not get everything."

I voted for option 2 above, but I think you would have to set a cut off. While I would like to have the earlier works I think there is an implicit contract with the patrons on those. I think its good for Wolfgang and good for the Open Design system if all future projects, starting with the next one were done under a clause of "If you are a pre-publication patron you get input and some extra content, if you are a patron for a future product you have the option of purchasing this one but without input and without the bonus material." People still would have to become a patron, but would have the option of picking up some version of older material.

tcarpenterjr

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 4

Greetings.

While I selected the second choice, I feel at some point the last project
should be retired from availability. The current system works just fine for
me (where the previous work is retired when the new one is published).

This preserves the "patron" system and rewards those who put their money where their mouth is. It also makes the older work, for a limited
time, available to those who just found out about open design or just got
the cash together.

If Wolfgang wants to offer "exclusive" projects as a part of larger, public
works, that may be ok. But I think the "patron" part of open design requires a bit of exclusivity to make it unique for those ponying up the upfront cash.

Tom

Aberzanzorax

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: Possibility?

Patron

Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 153

I suggested this as a possibility in the other (Steam and Brass) thread to entice potential detractors to change their minds, but I wonder how it would work as an overall model, and what people interested in this thread (but not that one) think.

Aberzanzorax wrote:

Once a project has closed, what if patrons of that project (those whose names are written on it) got a chance to add to it? Bear with me...

I was reading Dungeon Crawl Classics #52 - Chronicle of the Fiend, which was the Gen Con 2007 Tournament Module. What they did was put pictures of the winners and sidebars about the characters who died during playtests.

What if, after the project was complete, during the next project that was going on, patrons of the actual project could send in digital photos and email play experiences? This could help EVERYONE with additional playtesting (making for better projects) but also would give a personal touch from patrons and give them a chance to shine.

Wolfgang's work (or the work involved in just the editing and layout...which might even be commissioned out) would be paid for by the increased cost to new purchasers. Patrons would get a free updated pdf of this version that would have their own experiences, their own very personal touches, put into it. (Maybe each patron is guaranteed one sidebar and or picture and senior patrons are guaranteed 2 or 3...I haven't refined this.)

So only the new version would become available to new purchasers... making it different (and keeping the original rare). It would show off the awesomeness of the original people and give the patrons a community feel in their investment.

Thoughts?

Daigle

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject:

Contributor

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 324
Location: Austin, Texas

I don’t care about product exclusivity.

I became a senior patron for the last two projects to witness the craft and observe the process. Nothing more. I think art should be shared and spread around.

Stan!

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:23 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 4

I voted for choice #2 above, but I very nearly voted for #3.

I see a value in exclusivity, but I also think that the only way to really broaden the pool of possible patrons is to let them SEE what it is that they could get. Really, for both the authors and the publisher, you want to maximize the ability to make money off individual products AND to increase the money made on future products. At least, I THINK that's what you want (given that commitment to making high quality products and providing good service to the current patrons are the BASIC goals, perhaps the money making goals are a secondary concern).

If some non-patron buys a book (or two) and get a ton of use out of them, he or she will likely soon discover that a MORE COMPLETE version is available to patrons. So no matter HOW much use a book has, it would have had MORE if the person had been a patron ... and so is more likely to become a patron in the future.

I like the idea of variant covers. Though that is an added cost, it is just about the ONLY cost other than printing that would be attributable to an "unlimited" release of a patron product.
_________________
Stan!
Stannex.com ... the Home of All Things Stan!
10x10Toon.com ... Home of the 10' x 10' Toon

m8adam

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: Thoughts

Patron

Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 94

Having never been a patron (though I plan to become one once I get my next paycheck), I can only speak to the theoretical side of the argument. However, it seems to me that limiting availability of ALL projects to patrons of ANY project, in combination with project-specific special material for patrons who contributed to that project would be ideal.

By keeping availability limited to patrons, you keep the materials relatively "rare" and thus special. Not everyone is going to pay 50-100 dollars for an adventure module or sourcebook. I certainly wouldn't be here if I hadn't found some of Wolfgangs articles extremely impressive.

However, it makes no sense to me to discontinue access to projects that are so amazing and would bring so much joy to people who are seriously interested in, and supportive of, the gaming community and Open Design.
I also understand people wanting to have some exclusive material and "goodies" that are special and delineate them and their experience from the other patrons. I think that "bonus materials" would provide that sense of exclusivity nicely, without denying the bulk of the amazing work being produced to anyone who's willing to invest in the project as a whole and future projects.

It seems like this way it's fair to both camps. Those interested in "exclusive" or "collectable" material will be satiated, and those interested in new and exciting gaming materials will be able to get hold of what's probably some of the most creative and groundbreaking material being written.

deinol

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:48 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 28 Aug 2008
Posts: 162

I have mixed feelings myself. On the one hand, I like the idea of the patrons of each individual projects deciding on the exclusivity. On the other hand, I understand Wolfgang's desire to have a set system in place so that over the years he doesn't have to have a growing FAQ about how to get access to various projects.

As a new comer to the process myself I of course want access to more of the older projects that I would have jumped on had I known about them. I also definitely think that requiring patronage in a current project is a good idea. First, it helps introduce a person to the patronage process and possibly encourages them to continue patronage on later projects. Second, it helps Wolfgang continue to work on new projects which is part of the purpose of patronage as well. Giving an artist the freedom to create art.

I also definitely think that if sequel projects come up in the future, patrons of those project should have the option of getting the older project it refers to. As an example, I'm a patron for Wrath. As such, I know I would immediately jump on a project that was a sequel to Wrath. If allowing new patrons to the sequel access to Wrath allowed the sequel to be commissioned faster or more completely (larger word count, more art, etc) then I am all for it.

In my mind, the primary benefits of patronage before a project is complete is the amount of input you can have and the simple joy of watching the project come together. I came to Tales of Zobeck and Wrath rather late, but I know next project I'm involved in I will want to be a senior patron, and do so from the beginning.

jerrie luginbill

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:21 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
Location: lynden washington

Might as well drop into this thread and bare my soul here as I am getting blasted in the steam and brass thread.

Although I consider Steam and Brass to be unique among even the Open Design adventures I am hearing one continuing thread that I really don't think is fair for any patron of any of the projects past and future. While the exclusivity and rarity of the project is not exactly why I am here (please read the Steam and Brass thread.) I can understand the desire of some patrons to maintain that facet of this jewel.

But the idea of allowing access to exclusive material in any form by simply joining the club at a later date is not maintaining exclusivity or establishing rarity as most people define it. Even at a heightened price any later payment that allows access to past content is simply creating a club membership, or subscription fee.

I am sorry that there are those that are affected by the exclusiveness of the current model. Reading posts it looks like most of them are being adversely affected so I can't blame them for wanting to get something that they can't have-human nature and all, I would probably do the same. But to force open the treasure chest and begin handing out the treasure just makes the treasure less valuable, not more. If anyone can have it at any time it isn't exclusive, and if not exclusive then consequently not rare. By resetting the standard those that are looking for access to the past will be required to adhere to the same standards by others in the future. Are you prepared to have others buy the same thing you got when you risked your input as a patron from the beginning. Are you willing to share your ownership and experience with a stranger who had nothing at all to do with the project, who will probably not make any effort to appreciate it, and will simply look to overlay their own expectations and interpretations onto your experience.

If Wolfgang decides that the future is to allow open sales of past patronage projects to happen then that is his decision. But I can't really call it a Patronage model at that point. All it will be at that point is a marketing department with employees that pay for the privilege of being part of his marketing department. The reward for their efforts is a collectors edition of the adventure. At that point I would personally no longer be a patron. There would be no need. I could get the sourcebook on the store shelves and ask a "patron" to xerox any content I don't have. Or simply pay a subscription/membership fee if I have the money.

Wolfgang

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:52 am Post subject:

Patron

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1552
Location: The Mines

jerrie luginbill wrote:

If Wolfgang decides that the future is to allow open sales of past patronage projects to happen then that is his decision.

Let me quash this notion (again). The terms of past patronage projects are not up for discussion; they've been set and will continue as originally outlined.

I have no interest in changing project terms retroactively, and I find it insulting when others suggest that I might. Particularly others who have been a thorn in my side on this issue every time it comes up.

I have no interest in working for patrons who value exclusivity over all other considerations. Another implication of the patronage model is that I need not take everyone's money; I can choose my customers.

We're talking about the terms for future projects: closed limited editions, subscription/membership editions, or open editions are the main contenders. Let's not drag past projects into this. There's a whole separate thread on that topic that I'm studiously avoiding.
_________________
Wolfgang Baur
Kobold-in-Chief

Last edited by Wolfgang on Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:38 am; edited 2 times in total

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