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| Wolfgang |
 Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Player's Handbook II Sneak Preview |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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So, I have a copy of PHB2, and I expect I'll be posting a review on the front page this coming week.
If you have questions, fire away.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press
Last edited by Wolfgang on Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| richgreen01 |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008
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Location: London, UK
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So, what's the coolest thing you've read so far?
Cheers
Richard |
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| catsclaw |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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Do you see anything that suggests the designers see issues in the original designs of the classes that they're trying to rectify?
What are the chapter headings, and the page count devoted for each? What takes up the space previous taken by the character creation rules and the combat section?
Is there anything in there you find surprising or odd? A direction you weren't expecting them to take the game? Something you didn't imagine would work, that does? Something disappointing that could have been great? |
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| jasonbostwick |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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As it seems like it is a hotbed of dissent on ENWorld and RPGNet, I feel a bit obligated to ask this.
What are your opinions on the Weapon/Implement Expertise feats that give an untyped +1/tier bonus to attack rolls?
Also on the topic of feats, in the excerpt posted today on the WotC website I noticed a scarcity of class specific feats (at least in heroic tier) when compared to what was released in PHB1. Is this list excluding smaller lists of class-specific feats, or are they saving all of those for Arcane/Primal/Divine power? |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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| richgreen01 wrote: |
So, what's the coolest thing you've read so far?
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Tough to say, I'm torn between the deva (my favorite of the new races) and the avenger class.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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| catsclaw wrote: |
Do you see anything that suggests the designers see issues in the original designs of the classes that they're trying to rectify?
What are the chapter headings, and the page count devoted for each? What takes up the space previous taken by the character creation rules and the combat section?
Is there anything in there you find surprising or odd? A direction you weren't expecting them to take the game? Something you didn't imagine would work, that does? Something disappointing that could have been great? |
No sign of trying to rectify the PHB1 classes. The focus is on new material, by a wide margin.
1. Character Races, 23 pages
2. Character Classes, 145 pages
3. Character Options, 40 pages
4. Appendix: Rules Updates, 5 pages
That's it.
There are LOTS of things that are surprising or odd. Some seem like design mistakes. Others are jarring attempts at flavor that don't work for me (though I can see they might work for the fans of those classes or what have you). Others seem to contradict the emphasis on speed of play and easier bookkeeping that were a hallmark of PHB1.
I'm still reading and sorting through the details, and I imagine that, like the first PHB, some of it will turn out rather differently on the tabletop than it appears on the page.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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| jasonbostwick wrote: |
What are your opinions on the Weapon/Implement Expertise feats that give an untyped +1/tier bonus to attack rolls?
Also on the topic of feats, in the excerpt posted today on the WotC website I noticed a scarcity of class specific feats (at least in heroic tier) when compared to what was released in PHB1. Is this list excluding smaller lists of class-specific feats, or are they saving all of those for Arcane/Primal/Divine power? |
I haven't read the WotC list, but there are 62 heroic tier feats total. Of those, 31 are class-specific. Most of the rest are race-specific.
I have no opinion yet on Weapon/Implement expertise. The way it's limited seems... plausible, but I definitely see the argument for power creep. Which is inevitable in every edition, but this seems sort of early.
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Wolfgang Baur
Publisher, Kobold Press |
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| bamclean |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| There are LOTS of things that are surprising or odd. Some seem like design mistakes. Others are jarring attempts at flavor that don't work for me (though I can see they might work for the fans of those classes or what have you). Others seem to contradict the emphasis on speed of play and easier bookkeeping that were a hallmark of PHB1. |
I know you can't quote directly from the book, but can you elaborate some on the things that have surprised you?
Also, would you say this supplement improves the 4e game? Or could be detrimental to it? Overall, is there any reason to believe that it's anything more (or less) than material that simply wasn't included in the original? |
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| Erekose13 |
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Mike Mearls has said that by PHB2 they were better able to define the class roles and how certain classes fit within rolls, especially the controller.
Do you see any distinct shifts in the way roles work from PHB1? Any defining features that you can see for roles that the new classes illustrate? |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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| bamclean wrote: |
I know you can't quote directly from the book, but can you elaborate some on the things that have surprised you?
Also, would you say this supplement improves the 4e game? Or could be detrimental to it? Overall, is there any reason to believe that it's anything more (or less) than material that simply wasn't included in the original? |
This supplement BETTER improve the 4E game, because it is considered Core. So the bar is "At least as good as the first PHB". The classes and races are material that (for various interesting reasons) wasn't included in the original, but it's.... More complex in some ways, and that was a big surprise to me.
Other surprises included the pseudo-Christian naming for the devas (who are derived from Hindu mythology, after all), and the sense that some of the classes involve more bookkeeping or buff-tracking than the PHB1 classes. In fact, the accounting required for play will (quite naturally) increase with every player-oriented supplement, so that's normal.
The other surprises were some of the choices they made. I guess I was surprised to see the druid as different from the traditional druid as it seems to be. I was surprised that the invoker is... Boring? Narrow? I'm sure he's fun to play, but the powers seem very dull from a quick read.
It's hard to say with some of these classes and races until they hit the table. But my first impression is that these were put in book 2 for a reason. They are more complex (for some classes) or more fringe-fantasy (for the races). I mean, goliaths? That role used to be called the half-ogre, and it was a pretty narrow speciality even back in the 1E and 2E days.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
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Location: The Mines
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| Erekose13 wrote: |
| Do you see any distinct shifts in the way roles work from PHB1? Any defining features that you can see for roles that the new classes illustrate? |
It may be true that they see it internally. Given that I've only had the book for 48 hours, I don't see it yet. The strikers still look like strikers. The controllers look like controllers.
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Wolfgang Baur
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| richgreen01 |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| I was surprised that the invoker is... Boring? Narrow? I'm sure he's fun to play, but the powers seem very dull from a quick read. |
There is a dwarf invoker PC in my Parsantium campaign, using the first three levels that appeared on the WotC site. It's an OK class but not that dissimilar from the wizard in play, made more similar because the player hasn't picked any of the summoning powers.
Cheers
Richard |
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| Irian |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang wrote: |
| I guess I was surprised to see the druid as different from the traditional druid as it seems to be. |
Could you elaborate what you mean by that?
Or: Ist there anything in the book where you say "Wow, I HAVE to try this in my game" or "There is NO WAY I am going to use this?"
Or: Would you say the races/classes feel unique or do the feel similar to other classes/races from 4 ed?
Or: How did they "solve" the "heritage issue" of the Half-Orc?
Or: What do you - as a fan of all gnomish  - think of the 4ed Gnome?
(Pick one ) |
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| Wolfgang |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Kobold Overlord
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 4984
Location: The Mines
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[quote="Irian"]
| Wolfgang wrote: |
Or: Would you say the races/classes feel unique or do the feel similar to other classes/races from 4 ed?
Or: How did they "solve" the "heritage issue" of the Half-Orc?
Or: What do you - as a fan of all gnomish - think of the 4ed Gnome?
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I'm going to think some more on the druid before responding. There are definitely some "Hell YES!" and "No WAY is that going in my game!" moments in the book.
The races are a real mixed bag; only two appeal to me as "core", and even those require some ret-con work for a DM with a standard campaign. The deva has hints of the akashic memory from Arcana Evolved, and I think it's my favorite of the new races. Ok, I *know* it's my favorite. It has Planescape potential, it has NPC potential, and the racial +2s are perfect for wizard, cleric, invoker, and avenger. So, yeah, it's a keeper.
The goliath seems like a complete dud compared to, say, the 1E and 2E half-ogre, which had an identical role. The art doesn't match the description, the backstory is sort of weak, and making them big and dumb and stony doesn't seem any cooler than just saying "I'm a civilized half-ogre".
I'm finding it difficult to get excited about the shifter and the half-orc strikes me as great for a brutal rogue, but .... Well, I've never liked the half-orc, so I'm biased against them from the start.
They don't really "solve" the half-orc issue, but frankly I think that entire heritage argument is bogus.
Gnomes were the most important race in my high school campaign. These things are not all that gnomish to me. They make good rogues but not illusionists. The race is stuck with the fomorian backstory, and the art just don't look very gnomish except for the paragon image. I think making them good bards was a smart move, but the gnome/eladrin love seems... Really odd. In my campaign, the gnomes will get a different backstory. Hell, any of the gnome backstories from KQ#4 is better than what we get here.
So, somewhat disappointed by the gnomes. The reactive stealth/invisibility racial powers are well done. I'm sure someone will want to play one. Me, I'm going to make them villains. 
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Wolfgang Baur
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| Neal |
| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Can I make gnomish avengers who come to this mortal coil with evil intentions, dealing death and murder most foul to those who displease the Fey Lords and Ladies? Does the PHB2 give me everything I need to scare the crap out of my PCs the next time they hear a village has a plague of gnomes?
Will the illusion/invisibility abilities make it possible to emulate Silent Hill as my PCs move through the town to stop these Gnomish avengers before they take the Sidhe's tenth for displeasing Fey?
One of my players has requested that gnomes be Fey assassins in our game, and I'm inclined to do it if the PHB2's Avenger class accomplish that with a healthy dash of zealotry.
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About the Devas: Do they have a stupid backstory like the gnomes that I'm going to have to retcon out, or are they just that damn good?
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About the half-orcs; what was the non-rape compromise? Or does the book carefully sidestep the whole issue?
Thanks, Wolfgang! |
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