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| m8adam |
 Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: Need help with CR's and EL's |
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So, I thought I had a handle on Challenge Ratings and Encounter Levels for my campaign (first time DM'ing), but I can't seem to get it right. I either way over do it and have to fudge a ton of dice rolls to keep the PC's alive, or they slaughter everything I throw at them, even the army of monsters with CR equal to their level.
Can someone explain this phenomena to me? It seems the CR's from the core books are skewed, but is there some unwritten rule for adjusting? |
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I found exactly the same thing some years ago when I switched over to 3rd edition. The Challenge Ratings for low level monsters are utterly, completely, 100% worthless. It seems to get better with mid-level monsters, but then again maybe I just had a better "feel" for how to rate the encounters by then.
So, while I have no useful advice, as least I can offer sympathy... |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Need help with CR's and EL's |
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| m8adam wrote: |
| Can someone explain this phenomena to me? It seems the CR's from the core books are skewed, but is there some unwritten rule for adjusting? |
Do you allow your players access to supplements such as the Complete or Races of series? If so, then yes - CRs listed in the Monster Manual are going to (generally speaking) be a bit low. There's a few things that make that true.
A) WotC has a design philosophy (at least in 3rd edition) that assumes players only have the three core books. So, for example, when they designed a monster they supposedly did so while only considering material in the core books and the book containing the monster. (or if the book was FR or Eberron, they also included the campaign setting book).
B) There's no actual formula for determining a monster's challenge rating. It's pretty much left for the designer to take his or her best guess. I personally prefer to err on the high side. As a designer, if I'm going to get the CR wrong, I'd rather it be a little too high rather than a little too low. There's not much worse for a GM than leading the PCs to an unintentional slaughter. That's what happens when a CR is too low.
Now, that might make you feel a little better but it doesn't really help you improve your game situation. So here's a few things to consider.
- Don't be afraid to limit player's access to supplementary material, especially as a first-time GM. It's a lot easier to add a book later rather than taking it away, so you can always toss new material into the mix as you gain confidence in your skill.
- Stop fudging your dice. If your players figure out you're doing that, they'll lose confidence in your ability to run the game, because they know that no matter what happens, you'll bail them out. There's no real risk.
- Instead, be honest with them. If you overestimated what a monster could do, and the players wiped the floor with it, it's OK to give out slightly less XP for that encounter. Similarly, if you underestimated and a monster really kicked their asses, it's OK to dish out some bonus XP. If you end up with a TPK, consider the cause. Was it just bad luck? Did the players act foolishly? Did you throw too much at them? Once you know the cause, you can go about fixing it. If you caused the problem, don't be afraid to give out "free" resurrections - or even to rewind time and have the encounter never happen. I've done that a handful of times, and in my experience players are grateful that you've admitted a mistake and taken action to correct it - as long as you don't over use it.
- Worry less about challenge rating and (especially) encounter level. Instead, think more in line of what your players have access to, and how they might approach an encounter. The overall design intent behind a 3rd edition encounter is pretty good: on average, an encounter equal to their level should drain about 20% of their resources. Hit points, spell slots, special abilities, and so on. I find it's really tough to do that for every resource, so I don't try any longer. Instead, I look at one resource, and try to deplete that during an encounter. I might put in a monster that's going to take several rounds of combat to beat down, depleting spells and such. I might put in a monster that's going to hit real hard, depleting hit points.
- Give some serious consideration to running published adventures for a while, until you get the hang of things. Buy some older copies of Dungeon or pick up some adventures. You can get a lot of 3e stuff cheap on eBay right now. One book I'll recommend, if you can find it, is Adventure I from AEG. It's loaded with a whole bunch of short adventures. In my experience, the overall balance of the encounters is good.
Anyway, that's a big wall of text. I hope something in there is useful.
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John Ling
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| varianor |
| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| What characters do you have? CRs are adjusted for a party of four. If you have five, six or more, that's going to skew them right away. A gap, or having two casters, can also affect things. Give us the levels and PrCs, etc, too please. Those all factor in. |
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| m8adam |
| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks John. Almost all of that is extremely helpful. Especially the explanation of where CR's come from. I honestly wasn't sure what the "magic formula" was here, and that was causing a lot of hesitancy to try new things.
Varianor: I've got a halfling rogue, Dwarven Druid (w/ wolf companion) and a human cleric, all 4th level now. |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Okay, so you're missing a heavy fighter type right from the get go. Even a ranger or something would round out that party better. The wolf companion makes up for a bit of that (less if the druid won't risk the wolf under dangerous circumstances). You have healing from two of them, but the druid also functions similar to a wizard or sorceror in giving some large area damage options and/or shapechange to overcome obstacles. However, the druid isn't as good as a wizard (no sleep or fireball.)
You are probably seeing encounters with undead go easily if the cleric turns. They may have a tough time with size Large creatures with decent saves and lots of hit points trashing them. What army did they slaughter? |
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| Zherog |
| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Does your druid have plans to take advantage of wild shape? Has he/she dug into the intricacies of that class feature? It's a very powerful ability, especially if the player gains access to additional monster books.
In my opinion, you don't really need a "fighter type" to have a thriving party. One of the best groups I was in consisted of a sorcerer, an evoker, a diviner and my rogue. So I wouldn't worry about what you don't have. Here's some more advice, based on your party composition.
"Encounter Level" is supposed to measure how tough a particular fight will be for a group of four PCs. An EL equal to their average party level is supposed to consume about 20% (give or take) of their resources. But you don't have a group of four; your group is only three. That means an encounter with an EL of 4 (their average party level) is going to be a tougher fight than the rules would otherwise suggest.
I'd recommend you build a lot of your encounters multiple low CR critters. I'd aim for an EL a bit under their average party level - let's say 3 for now. Doing it this way gives you a bit of flexibility during an encounter without having to fudge. For example, a CR 2 and a CR 1 together are about an EL of 3. Neither combatant is going to seriously threaten a 4th level PC, even if that PC ends up in one-on-one combat. This will have a few effects. First, you'll get a better feel for running an encounter. Second, your group will build some confidence while they also work out their tactics. Both of those are going to be key going forward.
I also, as a general rule, recommend GMs build their encounters for the group they have rather than the stereotypical Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard group. As varianor said, your cleric probably handles undead encounters easily. This is a good thing that you want to happen. Let him. Toss in an encounter with several zombies or skeletons and let your cleric do his thing. Toss in several traps and let your rogue put her skills to good use. In another level or so, create encounters where the druid's wild shape ability really has a chance to shine.
The key to this sort of adventure design is to give everybody a turn to shine while also - every once in a while - taking the group out of their comfort zone. Every now and then, for example, throw in an undead that your cleric can't turn. Every now and then, toss in an encounter where a guy in heavy armor with a big ass sword would come in handy. Don't do it often, just every now and then. Your players will appreciate the challenge.
One other alternative you have - create an NPC to travel with the group. This has it's own can of worms, so be careful. The key for this is to make sure the NPC never outshines the players. He doesn't negotiate a cheaper price for their equipment, he doesn't solve the riddles, he doesn't make Knowledge checks to know stuff about people/places/etc. All the NPC does is help in combat.
Anyway, I hope that continues to help.
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| Amy Carrier |
| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Zherog wrote: |
| ...create an NPC to travel with the group... |
I've always thought this was a good idea. It lets you (the DM) exert some in-game influence when appropriate.
If the group get stuck somewhere because they have forgotten something they learned in the last game (which was a week ago for the players, but only a few minutes ago for the characters), the NPC can remind them. This is particularly effective if sometimes the NPC's suggestion leads to a dead-end, just like PC ideas sometimes do (that way the players won't start relying on the NPC to solve their problems for them).
Also, having an NPC around lets you work necessary exposition into the game bit by bit, instead of having the DM simply launch into a five minute monolog at the start of the session. |
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| that1mofo |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Amy Carrier wrote: |
| Zherog wrote: |
| ...create an NPC to travel with the group... |
I've always thought this was a good idea. It lets you (the DM) exert some in-game influence when appropriate.
If the group get stuck somewhere because they have forgotten something they learned in the last game (which was a week ago for the players, but only a few minutes ago for the characters), the NPC can remind them. This is particularly effective if sometimes the NPC's suggestion leads to a dead-end, just like PC ideas sometimes do (that way the players won't start relying on the NPC to solve their problems for them).
Also, having an NPC around lets you work necessary exposition into the game bit by bit, instead of having the DM simply launch into a five minute monolog at the start of the session. |
Oh I am so stealing that! |
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| varianor |
| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Can someone explain this phenomena to me? |
I think it's time.
My apologies for the obfuscation.
Rule Zero is well-intentioned, but with a subtext that we cannot begin to explicate. The real rule is:
Keep the Action Moving |
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